The Legend of the Galactic Heroes discusion thread

[Madner Kami]

STAR WARS critique of fascism is notably a critique of Richard Nixon, Augustus Caesar, and Hitler all in one. It's meant to be applicable, like THE LORD OF THE RINGS, to discussions of fascism and democracy but not meant to be a one-to-one-stand in. It's not retelling WW2 in Space but it has a lot of World War themes.

Um, what? No, LotR is not about facism and democracy at all and evne less is it about World War 2. It's explicitly a fairy tale that draws upon ancient norse and germanic lore.

[MithrandirOlorin]

STAR WARS critique of fascism is notably a critique of Richard Nixon, Augustus Caesar, and Hitler all in one. It's meant to be applicable, like THE LORD OF THE RINGS, to discussions of fascism and democracy but not meant to be a one-to-one-stand in. It's not retelling WW2 in Space but it has a lot of World War themes.

In short, what you think of as a failure was actually its success to tell a universal story about the evils of authoritarianism.

I'm not a big fan of the Galactic Heroes overarching plot because it falls into the trap a lot of the idea of Fascist but Efficient which the idea of the dictatorship with its rampant militarism is going to be more effective than the democracy. I've written some sci-fi books with deconstructing the idea so I may be a bit biased on that.

Still, I like the somewhat more obvious take on the Empire's flaws.

And that desire to be everything at once is what makes it not all that useful as an allegory.

[CharlesPhipps]

And that desire to be everything at once is what makes it not all that useful as an allegory.

I strongly disagree. I'm also happy to debate it.

STAR WARS critique of fascism is notably a critique of Richard Nixon, Augustus Caesar, and Hitler all in one. It's meant to be applicable, like THE LORD OF THE RINGS, to discussions of fascism and democracy but not meant to be a one-to-one-stand in. It's not retelling WW2 in Space but it has a lot of World War themes.

Um, what? No, LotR is not about facism and democracy at all and evne less is it about World War 2. It's explicitly a fairy tale that draws upon ancient norse and germanic lore.

I'm literally quoting Tolkien by the way.

“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.”

He also talked about WW1's influence on his works and how it applied to his son's dealings with WW2.

Edit:

Here's a good video on the subject.

https://youtu.be/qUL4eCWAh5M?list=FLfWm ... zySKDJidoA

[MithrandirOlorin]

I feel like the Empire in Star Wars is useless in addressing Fascism since it ignores the Populist and Nationalist pillars of it.

Over the course of watching LOTGH, I've come to realize it's really on the Republic side for Fascism is relevant, the Empire is just under Space Feudalism.

[CharlesPhipps]

I feel like the Empire in Star Wars is useless in addressing Fascism since it ignores the Populist and Nationalist pillars of it.

Over the course of watching LOTGH, I've come to realize it's really on the Republic side for Fascism is relevant, the Empire is just under Space Feudalism.

I think STAR WARS is extremely useful in discussing the rise of fascism but if you attempt to link it to Germany, you're failing while it's a perfect discussion for the nationalism as well as brutality of Imperial Japan. Emperor Palpatine plays upon the fear of the other and uses the war mongering sentiment following military conflict to divert people from traditionalist values to new modernized military ones.

The destruction of the Jedi and traditionalist religion in the galaxy is a major part of what Palpatine is hoping to do in order to gain total control over the galaxy with himself as the central figure of a new state-based cult.

Palpatine wholeheartedly creates a military culture from whole cloth just like Hitler did to replace the existing one. In this version, the Stormtroopers/Clone Troopers nicely represent the Waffen-SS as they are a separate military which exists alongside the Navy as well as personally loyal to him.

Mind you, most of the best Space Fascism material is in the EU which never gets touched with a 10 foot pole.

[MithrandirOlorin]

The only "Other" really being Feared are people who want to leave. Frankly his original Political enemies are this universe's Brexit.

And I'm trying to base what I say on Star War son just the movie, it seems like you're alluding to a lot of EU stuff.

The problem with the Stormtrooper analogy is they aren't created from Populist radicalization, they are just literally created.

[CharlesPhipps]

The only "Other" really being Feared are people who want to leave. Frankly his original Political enemies are this universe's Brexit.

Or the Confederacy of Independent Star Systems are....the Confederacy of the United States with extraordinarily rich exploiters wanting to have more freedom to continue exploiting people.

Well, Palpatine is an exaggerated supervillain but either way the situation is set up so there's going to be a war whether he triggers it or not. Whatever the Separatists motives, they are threatening enough to the Republic that they're scared of them. If the Republic doesn't attack first (and the Jedi makes it happen) then Dooku will attack first and already has planned to.

It's three years of brutal war to consolidate his position. The fact the war is against aliens and rich people who might threaten his position reflects how China's President got into power by targeting minorities as well as oligarchs. Also, a certain guy in Russia.

And I'm trying to base what I say on Star War son just the movie, it seems like you're alluding to a lot of EU stuff.

I mentioned the EU stuff gets more into it but I'll happily restrict myself to the movies.

The problem with the Stormtrooper analogy is they aren't created from Populist radicalization, they are just literally created.

They were also assumed to be recruits in the original movies. They're also indoctrinated youth in the sequel trilogy.

[MithrandirOlorin]

Even in A New Hope they were all assumed to be the same size.

And indoctrinated at youth is not the same thing as the real Storm Troopers either. Like the Brownshirts the movement largely came form disillusioned vetrans, but they could also be compared to the KKK without masks.

[CharlesPhipps]

Even in A New Hope they were all assumed to be the same size.

And indoctrinated at youth is not the same thing as the real Storm Troopers either. Like the Brownshirts the movement largely came form disillusioned vetrans, but they could also be compared to the KKK without masks.

The Stormtroopers of Star Wars aren't actually the Stormtroopers of the Nazis as the Night of the Long Knives destroyed them as an organization. Oddly enough, they're much closer to the Waffen-SS as they are the replacements for the Clonetroopers.

And Nazi Germany did end up using child soldiers.

[MithrandirOlorin]

Thing about the SS is how it wound up being mostly Nobility.

The only relation I think the Empire in LOTGH has to Nazism is it could be what the Fourth Reich would have become after enough time if Himmler had gotten to define it.