Sfdebris.net

clearspira wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:08 pm Women who are basically men, implying that a ''strong woman'' is in fact just a woman who has discarded every trace of femininity. For example, Sarah Connor in Terminator 2 was a tough woman. Grace in Dark Fate was a man.

What? Grace looked like a woman to me. She fought like a Terminator, Sarah couldn't do that. It's about brute strength, not about "femininity". And she did do some less brute-strength moves in her fights, but then so did the Terminator, because like the T-1000 it was a much more "lithe" and flowing Terminator when in its filth/liquid-metal body.

I really don't see this as a strong example of what I think you're saying.

Deledrius wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:59 pm

clearspira wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:08 pm Women who are basically men, implying that a ''strong woman'' is in fact just a woman who has discarded every trace of femininity. For example, Sarah Connor in Terminator 2 was a tough woman. Grace in Dark Fate was a man.

What? Grace looked like a woman to me. She fought like a Terminator, Sarah couldn't do that. It's about brute strength, not about "femininity". And she did do some less brute-strength moves in her fights, but then so did the Terminator, because like the T-1000 it was a much more "lithe" and flowing Terminator when in its filth/liquid-metal body.

I really don't see this as a strong example of what I think you're saying.

Depends on how you define femininity doesn't it?

clearspira wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 pm Depends on how you define femininity doesn't it?

Yes. I don't see what you saw in this film, it seems.

"Humans are special" or the, even stupider, "humans are diverse". If a show has aliens or fantasy races, they are going to be infinitely more interesting than the humans. I don't need to be pandered to on account of being a human being, like homo sapiens is some kind of marginalised group.

As for the latter, this is an excuse for aliens and fantasy races to not be diverse. Instead, each will have one culture, prosthetic will be constantly reused and, in general, the whole point of having a different group of beings will be completely wasted.

Just once, I'd like a multi-coloured hyper-psychic winged elf (or whatever) recognise that we're a pretty plain and boring bunch, us humans.

Simplicius wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:01 am "Humans are special" or the, even stupider, "humans are diverse". If a show has aliens or fantasy races, they are going to be infinitely more interesting than the humans. I don't need to be pandered to on account of being a human being, like homo sapiens is some kind of marginalised group.

As for the latter, this is an excuse for aliens and fantasy races to not be diverse. Instead, each will have one culture, prosthetic will be constantly reused and, in general, the whole point of having a different group of beings will be completely wasted.

Just once, I'd like a multi-coloured hyper-psychic winged elf (or whatever) recognise that we're a pretty plain and boring bunch, us humans.

Trek is bad about that. Every major alien race is just one aspect of human nature and then magnified.

B5 did it better bug obviously RMS spent alot of time in his world building then Trek did. Trek did it on the fly. Create a new alien and see if stuck and whatever characteristics the alien race showed initially is what they are as a whole going forward.

I'd argue Cardassians do seem to be the most diverse alien race in Trek but they got more time in Trek then even Klingons (imo).

McAvoy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:28 am

PapaPalpatine wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:52 pm

McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:01 am I will get flack for this but: a female warrior can easily take down another more or less equal male warrior. All things being equal, training, skill level etc, a woman cannot beat a man. If she does because she has to do it dirty.

Even skill levels favor the woman, a direct hit from a man is a difference maker. Look at all the weight classes and the reason why UFC and boxing are separated by sexes.

Agreed. Also, besting Joe Average in a fight is one thing. Besting a seasoned professional who has a list of confirmed kills longer than your arm? Yeah, good luck with that...

Exactly. My big gripe in the bare knuckles wrestling boxing fights we see. Once it gets to the ground, or you are boxing, men will win 99% of the time.

Kira on DS9 is the worse offender. Mostly due to the choreography. Double fisted hit and then a elbow and a flip. On Klingons who are supposed to be much stronger than a human (that is something else too, especially Word)

The Kira one bothered me. There are lots of ways to portray a wiry veteran geurilla fighter defeating Klingons in melee by exploiting their arrogance and using "cheap" shots, but they always show her putting them down in direct contests that she should have had no chance with. Even if she was somehow just as strong as them, the sheer mass difference should have done it.

On the subject of strength I always got the impression that Klingons, Cardassians, and Bajorans were all roughly equivalent to Humans. The Klingons just seem stronger because they all lift. The Vulcans and Ferengi are the ones with superstrength (Quark once crushed a gold bar into powder in a moment of frustration), although the writers seem to forget this more than they remember.

McAvoy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:05 pm
Trek is bad about that. Every major alien race is just one aspect of human nature and then magnified.

B5 did it better bug obviously RMS spent alot of time in his world building then Trek did. Trek did it on the fly. Create a new alien and see if stuck and whatever characteristics the alien race showed initially is what they are as a whole going forward.

I'd argue Cardassians do seem to be the most diverse alien race in Trek but they got more time in Trek then even Klingons (imo).

I strongly agree. The Cardassians are very well characterised, in stark contrast to most other Trek aliens.

McAvoy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:28 am

PapaPalpatine wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:52 pm

McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:01 am I will get flack for this but: a female warrior can easily take down another more or less equal male warrior. All things being equal, training, skill level etc, a woman cannot beat a man. If she does because she has to do it dirty.

Even skill levels favor the woman, a direct hit from a man is a difference maker. Look at all the weight classes and the reason why UFC and boxing are separated by sexes.

Agreed. Also, besting Joe Average in a fight is one thing. Besting a seasoned professional who has a list of confirmed kills longer than your arm? Yeah, good luck with that...

Exactly. My big gripe in the bare knuckles wrestling boxing fights we see. Once it gets to the ground, or you are boxing, men will win 99% of the time.

Kira on DS9 is the worse offender. Mostly due to the choreography. Double fisted hit and then a elbow and a flip. On Klingons who are supposed to be much stronger than a human (that is something else too, especially Word)

On this subject, the other one that gets me (and it isn't a sci fi or fantasy only trope I admit) is the ''low blow deactivates a man'' trope, whereby a 90 pound woman can take out a 200 pound guy by just hitting him between the legs.

I'm not going to make out that I am Billy Badass or anything but I have been in a few fights in my life and I can say categorically that when that adrenaline is flowing a hit to the nuts is something that you can power through long enough that in any real street fight that woman is going to have her face smashed into the nearest wall before he goes down. The nuts aren't an ''I win'' button, they're an ''i've just royally pissed off a guy twice my size'' button. And that is even assuming you can even hit them. Jokes aside, they are not actually a large target nor is he not going to be actively defending them. That is why in ''America's Home Videos'' and such it is always the men who are not expecting the shot that go down in like a sack of bricks: no adrenaline, no guard, no time to prepare.

I have been hit in the balls during a fight and I can tell you that the pain is not near as bad as getting randomly hit when you are not expecting it.

At best for me it was a dull pain.

On the other hand, a well placed hard enough kick to the balls can seriously injure a man. There was a story where a angry wife grabbed hee husband by the balls and twisted them ending up killing him.

Here is another one:

'That's a direct order'. No one in the military says that. You are told to do something and you do it. Don't do it, and it's not that long before higher ups get involved.

The amount of times I hear this not only in science fiction but modern day placed shows or movies makes it sound like people have an option to listen to a superior.

Another: huge spaceships bigger than a aircraft carrier will absolutely have more than one officer with the rank of captain. Only one will be the CO and XO will be of equal rank. The commanding engineering officer will most likely be a captain as well. Aircraft carriers have a captain as we in command of the air wing. The whole trope of one officer with the rank of captain kinda bugs me. Star Trek and B5 have this. Though the TOS crew of course by the end were nearly all captains.

mathewgsmith wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:18 pm

McAvoy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:28 am

PapaPalpatine wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:52 pm

McAvoy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:01 am I will get flack for this but: a female warrior can easily take down another more or less equal male warrior. All things being equal, training, skill level etc, a woman cannot beat a man. If she does because she has to do it dirty.

Even skill levels favor the woman, a direct hit from a man is a difference maker. Look at all the weight classes and the reason why UFC and boxing are separated by sexes.

Agreed. Also, besting Joe Average in a fight is one thing. Besting a seasoned professional who has a list of confirmed kills longer than your arm? Yeah, good luck with that...

Exactly. My big gripe in the bare knuckles wrestling boxing fights we see. Once it gets to the ground, or you are boxing, men will win 99% of the time.

Kira on DS9 is the worse offender. Mostly due to the choreography. Double fisted hit and then a elbow and a flip. On Klingons who are supposed to be much stronger than a human (that is something else too, especially Word)

The Kira one bothered me. There are lots of ways to portray a wiry veteran geurilla fighter defeating Klingons in melee by exploiting their arrogance and using "cheap" shots, but they always show her putting them down in direct contests that she should have had no chance with. Even if she was somehow just as strong as them, the sheer mass difference should have done it.

On the subject of strength I always got the impression that Klingons, Cardassians, and Bajorans were all roughly equivalent to Humans. The Klingons just seem stronger because they all lift. The Vulcans and Ferengi are the ones with superstrength (Quark once crushed a gold bar into powder in a moment of frustration), although the writers seem to forget this more than they remember.

Klingons were supposed to be the strongest with Vulcans being right behind. I suppose if you for example had Sisko fighting who you could say has above average strength for a human with above average skills, that I can see him taking on Klingons. But then you got Vulcans mixed in, they have been almost consistently shown to have superior strength to any human.

Strength is powered by the plot. SG-1 had this problem with the Jaffa as well.