What Makes the Star Wars Original EU So Special?

[GreyICE]

Many Sith claim to rise above that depravity, to have mastered the temptations of the Dark Side, and to truly be in control. They claim that they are so wise and powerful they have grown beyond the drawbacks of the Dark Side, and are true masters of the force.

They are, in a word, deluded and lying. The Sith lie. It is a rule. To themselves above all. Darth Bane claimed to have risen above the depravity, yet increasingly his mindset began to revolve around what a failure his apprentice was, and how he would need a new apprentice to carry on his legacy, that no one was capable of carrying on his legacy, how he would have to kill her for being a failure.

And in the end the apprentice killed Bane, exactly as he was convinced she could not. He had deluded himself that he was more powerful, and that she was less powerful. He deluded himself that violence was the only answer to an unworthy apprentice. He claimed logic, but it was fear, arrogance, and bloodlust that drove him. All of his greater purposes, and by the end all he could do was obsess over the strength of his own apprentices.

Every Dark Side user we see undergoes a similar spiral. Their plans more grandiose, less connected to reality. On the eve of ultimate triumph, when Palpetine had nothing to lose, he decided to have a duel between his apprentice and his apprentice's son, just to see which was more worthy, and to amuse him. All his wise and far-seeing ways, planning out the fall of the Jedi council, and in the end he's sitting on his throne in black robes cackling and setting up fights that a small child could have told him would go horribly wrong.

The only one who dodges this is Darth Revan, and that's only by dint of traumatic memory loss. And even then, right before the memory loss Revan was getting pretty fucking delusional about how powerful they were.

[Captain Crimson]

Many Sith claim to rise above that depravity, to have mastered the temptations of the Dark Side, and to truly be in control. They claim that they are so wise and powerful they have grown beyond the drawbacks of the Dark Side, and are true masters of the force.

They are, in a word, deluded and lying. The Sith lie. It is a rule. To themselves above all. Darth Bane claimed to have risen above the depravity, yet increasingly his mindset began to revolve around what a failure his apprentice was, and how he would need a new apprentice to carry on his legacy, that no one was capable of carrying on his legacy, how he would have to kill her for being a failure.

And in the end the apprentice killed Bane, exactly as he was convinced she could not. He had deluded himself that he was more powerful, and that she was less powerful. He deluded himself that violence was the only answer to an unworthy apprentice. He claimed logic, but it was fear, arrogance, and bloodlust that drove him. All of his greater purposes, and by the end all he could do was obsess over the strength of his own apprentices.

Every Dark Side user we see undergoes a similar spiral. Their plans more grandiose, less connected to reality. On the eve of ultimate triumph, when Palpetine had nothing to lose, he decided to have a duel between his apprentice and his apprentice's son, just to see which was more worthy, and to amuse him. All his wise and far-seeing ways, planning out the fall of the Jedi council, and in the end he's sitting on his throne in black robes cackling and setting up fights that a small child could have told him would go horribly wrong.

The only one who dodges this is Darth Revan, and that's only by dint of traumatic memory loss. And even then, right before the memory loss Revan was getting pretty fucking delusional about how powerful they were.

I mean, that's certainly true, but it is also noteworthy that Bane was pragmatic. When he said he'd let Caleb go, he did. Granted, it was for self-serving purposes, but it is something to note. I think Bane is smart enough to know that offering rewards and keeping your word to some extent (if it isn't in direct conflict with your goal) goes a long way toward getting people to do want you want. He's an excellent avatar to a social darwinist and in that respect I guess you could say the Sith fully embrace our innate animal passions, like how our biological urges cloud our conscious will. But it requires a truly dediated Sith to do so.

I always see it as the dark side is the ultimate expression of self-obsession, the light is the ultimate expression of self-release. And both have flaws in their own way. Same as the Sith, the Jedi likewise lie to themselves. Shedding the biological trickery of our physical form, with a limited worldview, and attaining true oneness with the universe is difficult even for them, and those biological impulses, like rationalization, are always not so far removed from our psyche. It's all too easy to conclude why many would fall off the path, especially since you could most definitely make a case argument that the Sith are better equipped to lead the galaxy if we are doomed never to have a true golden age. If conflict is our inevitable physical state, put people in charge who best know how to stir that. Kinda like the Shadow philosophy on B5.

Though something Mace Windu said also bears examination. That the Jedi follow the light less out of true selflessness and more out of pragmatism, that to give yourself over to the dark side, even if you can maintain your consciousness will, changes you into something else past the point of repair. And I think that's a genuine counterargument to make. It's where I think the Jedi of the PT era went wrong and why even without the Sith, there can never be a true golden age. How does enlightenment or any social reform and change take place? I don't think it's with activism. Those are always a bandage on a bleeding wound. It comes through addressing the rot at the core of society. By teaching and in setting by example. Which they try to do, but when so many Jedi have fallen off of the beaten path, then it's not going to stick. Another way the PT Jedi had too much baggage, in that the public had lost trust in them due to so many fallen Jedi, merely from that era.

But that's just me, though. Please disagree! I'd love a passionate intellectual discourse on this.

[GreyICE]

I agree dark side users can maintain pragmatism and decorum, but look at how it treats them over time. Sidious starts out turning Anakin by manipulating him, "begging for his life" as he's attacked by Mace Windu.

Could he have tried to turn Luke by pretending to be an old Jedi, similar to Obi Wan (who Luke was missing and mourning) scarred and imprisoned by Vader, claiming the evils of the empire as Vader's doing, and "helping" Luke with his Force powers, by showing him dark side techniques to "defeat Vader"? Sure! In the prequel trilogy, that's exactly the sort of duplicitous scheming I'd expect.

By the original trilogy times, he's sitting in a throne cackling and shocking Luke with lightning bolts for fun. Lets just say I feel like the Dark Side has had a bit of a corrosive effect on his mind. As for Mace Windu, he tried to master a balance between the light side and the dark side. The dark side would be ever-gnawing, telling him that the light side only uses the light side out of fear, and that in truth the dark techniques are much stronger, the faster path to power. I think the Emperor would have been happy had Windu beaten Anakin, as he would have had a chance at another disciple (he does love pitting his disciples against each other).

I agree the Jedi council had in 4,000 years fallen in a large degree, whether out of fear, or excessive caution. The KOTOR Jedi were reserved and dignified, but they hardly seemed to have the same bans on romance, affection, and general emotion that the Jedi did later. The Jedi of the Prequel Trilogy were almost useless, so reserved and withdrawn that their numbers were minuscule. I mean if we look at the entire thing, there was like 20 "younglings"? Even if we give a very generous lifespan, and say it takes about 10 years to graduate, we're looking at a cap of maybe 200-300 Jedi, absolutely tops. Compared to KOTOR numbers? We see veritable enclave of Jedi. They were dying out, strangling themselves, and sitting around waiting for a prophesied savior to restore them.

[Captain Crimson]

I agree dark side users can maintain pragmatism and decorum, but look at how it treats them over time. Sidious starts out turning Anakin by manipulating him, "begging for his life" as he's attacked by Mace Windu.

Yeah, and the fact it physically rots you. I mean, even if you wanna release the self, that's something that should be concerning. This shell is a temporary vessel, and there is no sense in spray-painting a temple with graffiti even if you know it's gonna be bombed next week. To stretch a metaphor beyond all reason.

Could he have tried to turn Luke by pretending to be an old Jedi, similar to Obi Wan (who Luke was missing and mourning) scarred and imprisoned by Vader, claiming the evils of the empire as Vader's doing, and "helping" Luke with his Force powers, by showing him dark side techniques to "defeat Vader"? Sure! In the prequel trilogy, that's exactly the sort of duplicitous scheming I'd expect.

By the original trilogy times, he's sitting in a throne cackling and shocking Luke with lightning bolts for fun. Lets just say I feel like the Dark Side has had a bit of a corrosive effect on his mind. As for Mace Windu, he tried to master a balance between the light side and the dark side. The dark side would be ever-gnawing, telling him that the light side only uses the light side out of fear, and that in truth the dark techniques are much stronger, the faster path to power. I think the Emperor would have been happy had Windu beaten Anakin, as he would have had a chance at another disciple (he does love pitting his disciples against each other).

Don't forget basic human psychology here. He'd ruled unchallenged for close to two decades. I think on some level he even was thankful for the Rebellion providing an outlet for an excuse to keep on militarizing. Since the Vong invasion was still a few decades away.

And before someone calls me out on this, nowhere is it directly confirmed that Palpatine's justification to himself for building the Empire was to fight the Vong some time in the future. He doubtlessly viewed them as a convenient alibi to implement the plan that had been brewing for a thousand years, kinda like Hitler once confessed, IIRC, to a farmer he didn't believe in race issues, he just used them as a tool for his movement. And it's one of the ways that the old EU was so great. You got alternate interpretations on key historical events and figures, good and bad, which is utterly true to RL. Like some speculating that Palpatine's Empire could have beaten the Vong, even though the NR could have done so themselves, but it was infighting that was their biggest weakness.

Back on point, even outside the context of the EU, however, I think the idea of ol' Palps wanting to recruit Windu was quite slim. At best, you could argue that he would've made him something like the Emperor's Hands. Assassins who perform their job quite well. The apprentice role was always going to go to Anakin due to his raw potential, that was then cut down after the near fatal confrontation with Obi-Wan on Mustafar, literally. I am so evil.

I agree the Jedi council had in 4,000 years fallen in a large degree, whether out of fear, or excessive caution. The KOTOR Jedi were reserved and dignified, but they hardly seemed to have the same bans on romance, affection, and general emotion that the Jedi did later. The Jedi of the Prequel Trilogy were almost useless, so reserved and withdrawn that their numbers were minuscule. I mean if we look at the entire thing, there was like 20 "younglings"? Even if we give a very generous lifespan, and say it takes about 10 years to graduate, we're looking at a cap of maybe 200-300 Jedi, absolutely tops. Compared to KOTOR numbers? We see veritable enclave of Jedi. They were dying out, strangling themselves, and sitting around waiting for a prophesied savior to restore them.

It really isn't about that higher enlightenment. They're judgmental, they don't try to save an enemy, they rule the personal lives of whoever they draft in at a young age, out of a self-confession they find the young easier to influence. They're crusaders on a Force-given mission to save their souls from the darkness, and if this requires going for when they are more malleable, so be it. Odo said it best. "One of the costs of having freedom of choice means you have to accept that sometimes, people will make the wrong one." The Jedi are so laser-focused on what's "right," that they can't see the forest for the trees.

The KOTOR era Jedi had their flaws too. At best, you could argue letting billions die in the MW was a necessary evil, yet why weren't they sharing that with the Republic commanders? It's because of what Mical had said. That the Jedi had become insulated, their worldview separated from the galaxy, since to walk their paths is to leave behind all ties to this plane, and they get too caught up in that far-off goal. Kinda like that quote from To Kill A Mockingbird.

"Sometimes the Bible in the hand of one man is worse than a whisky bottle in the hand of (another)... there are just some kind of men who - who're so busy worrying about the next world they've never learned to live in this one, and you can look down the street and see the results."

That pretty much sums up how I feel about the Jedi. I don't think Republic commanders would have defected in nearly the numbers they did to Revan's army if the Council hadn't been honest with them from the start. And where was that investigation? Best I see it, the Jedi just had a vague sense there was more to this than meets the eye. Even the PT Jedi tried investigating Sidious and where the trail led. If the Jedi are to have any hopes of survival, at least as I see in Legends context, they'll have to detach themselves from politics and head to some isolated world far from galactic events and begin meditating to get in touch with the world around them. But that doesn't sell product.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

I don't think it's a mystery at all why EU stuff was popular. The original film was the highest grossing film of all time. The original trilogy was structured in a way that would easily allow for future additions to the storyline, and the "lived in" aesthetic that Lucas wanted gave the impression that there was a story behind every little detail. It also catered to demographic groups most likely to invest themselves in a story's universe. Beyond that, the original trilogy was all there was for canon for a long time. Even the original Star Trek got a big boost in mystique for its relatively short run on tv, and that was still 79 episodes.

So with generations of fans growing up with Legends material being the only supplement to 3-6 movies, it's no surprise that the best of that material would be highly regarded. Even without commenting on the relative quality of EU stuff today, the amount of mainline canon material coming out now makes the EU feel more tangential (at least until they artificially withhold information from the films in order to stuff into comic books or whatever).

[chaos42]

im just thinking that the sith we see are created to justify the rule of two, because those are the only sith we see most of the time, the violent psychos, at least in the most recent stuff the last few years. the thing is what i think we need is more chess master types, more concerned with tactics and obtaining power though power plays and moves, most sith inquisitor less sith warrior.

Plus i really think that the rule of 2 is a bad idea, the master has all the knowledge so far gained and the apprentice must crave and learn it. the things some may be lost each time the master is killed just because he hadden't taught that lesson and the student managed to get lucky or come up with a tactic that the master had not though of. while its power their trying to build power isn't the only way to win clever tactics and cunning can make someone who is physically or in this case more powerful in the force than you are weaker if for example you hit him with 2 dozen mercs first then blew up the area round him with explosives then when in for the kill. I just think that keeping options open and not going all in on this rule of 2 is a good idea plus since everyone keeps training secret apprentices its kinda pointless anyway. so why does it even exist


as for palpatine he was good at power plays but he isn't a millitary commander he and tarkin are both politicians and they both came up with bad plan after bad plan that made things worse.

also the eu had marketing. how many times were the star wars novels and media promoted, how often were the toys on tv, well after the movies its all about how this stuff is marketed

[Captain Crimson]

I don't think it's a mystery at all why EU stuff was popular. The original film was the highest grossing film of all time. The original trilogy was structured in a way that would easily allow for future additions to the storyline, and the "lived in" aesthetic that Lucas wanted gave the impression that there was a story behind every little detail. It also catered to demographic groups most likely to invest themselves in a story's universe. Beyond that, the original trilogy was all there was for canon for a long time. Even the original Star Trek got a big boost in mystique for its relatively short run on tv, and that was still 79 episodes.

So with generations of fans growing up with Legends material being the only supplement to 3-6 movies, it's no surprise that the best of that material would be highly regarded. Even without commenting on the relative quality of EU stuff today, the amount of mainline canon material coming out now makes the EU feel more tangential (at least until they artificially withhold information from the films in order to stuff into comic books or whatever).

What makes the EU feel tangential? Have you seen the new canon content? Let's see... Rey is just a gender-swapped Luke Skywalker and renamed Jaina Solo in some LOTF/FOTJ fusion grafted onto ANH 2.0. RO is just DF grafted to the DS novel, except Jan Ors is renamed into Jyn Erso and replaced Kyle Katarn. The Solo movie is just the HST. And TROS is ROTJ meets the TT and DE. What definition of tangential are you going with? Because it's why many people say they don't have an original bone in their bodies, though something tells me it's just the pet stories the creative forces involved with the making of the ST were familiar with. Ironically, the most original movie of ST, TLJ, is also the most divisive. That should tell you something. And yet, it's all good if they'd only just continue printing EU novels under the Legends banner. That's not difficult at all, and they can't even do that for the fans.

im just thinking that the sith we see are created to justify the rule of two, because those are the only sith we see most of the time, the violent psychos, at least in the most recent stuff the last few years. the thing is what i think we need is more chess master types, more concerned with tactics and obtaining power though power plays and moves, most sith inquisitor less sith warrior.

How is that justifying anything? As if the rule of two is an inherently flawed idea. If not that, where do you think the ancient Sith came from? I know my EU history. The Sith were Jedi exiles who tried to overthrow the order and were cast out for that. They fled to planets across the rim and bred with the local Sith species worshiping them as dark gods. In time, the Sith philosophy became more than about bloodlines. It was a belief. And it all originated on Korriban. And if you want a chessmaster type, that is Darth Bane. He sets up for the Republic's fall, and while there are a few facepalming moments, not as much of it comes from the heroes as you might think. Again, what have you heard that would make the novels sound so bad?

Trust me, if/when the DC touches on this aspect of Sith lore, they are going to go with what the EU established decades ago. I don't expect them to deviate too far from that because they're slaves to the nostalgia they need to keep older fans from abandoning the IP.

Plus i really think that the rule of 2 is a bad idea, the master has all the knowledge so far gained and the apprentice must crave and learn it. the things some may be lost each time the master is killed just because he hadden't taught that lesson and the student managed to get lucky or come up with a tactic that the master had not though of. while its power their trying to build power isn't the only way to win clever tactics and cunning can make someone who is physically or in this case more powerful in the force than you are weaker if for example you hit him with 2 dozen mercs first then blew up the area round him with explosives then when in for the kill. I just think that keeping options open and not going all in on this rule of 2 is a good idea plus since everyone keeps training secret apprentices its kinda pointless anyway. so why does it even exist

Bane had specifically wanted a line of succession that would outlive him. It was a way to strengthen the Sith. A huge problem of the era was that weakness does not equate to stupidity. You got a strong master, a gaggle of weaker students would team up and overthrow him together, further diluting the power of the dark side. Bane was definitely a social darwinist who wanted to promote the strength of the dark side at all costs. You had to earn the power which you wielded. Either you beat the master, and earned the title of Dark Lord of the Sith, or you failed, and he or she went to choose another.

The ironic part is that it was during the era of Plagueis's master were the rule of two broke down, since Darth Tenebrous, Plagueis's master, who need I remind you had trained Sidious, had five secret apprentices that he was training without Plagueis's knowledge, and one of the first things Plagueis did when he took over Bane's line of succession was to hunt them all down and kill them. For added irony, Plagueis himself did not overcome Tenebrous, but merely backstabbed him when he was distracted at a critical moment from betrayal by their business partners. The rule of two started out as the natural order of the Sith with either the most strong or the most cunning taking the mantle, but gradually fell out of practice the closer to the PT era that you get. Final irony is Palpatine was closest to the dream Bane envisioned as any Sith from his line of succession, and even then, he did not overthrow Plagueis fairly.

as for palpatine he was good at power plays but he isn't a millitary commander he and tarkin are both politicians and they both came up with bad plan after bad plan that made things worse.

And even Palpatine didn't take the power from Plagueis. He kinda stole it. While I respect that you're not personally claiming 90% of what you didn't read is garbage (and thanks for that, I'm being genuine, I'm glad you're wise enough not to engage in such tactics!), I also think if you are going to criticize the books that are still widely beloved among EU/Legends fans today, which even the authors are looking to for inspiration, maybe you should read them or an online wiki article first.

also the eu had marketing. how many times were the star wars novels and media promoted, how often were the toys on tv, well after the movies its all about how this stuff is marketed

I think it is ironically that mass-marketed obsession that is the reason we can't get more EU under the Legends banner. They think it would "confuse" us. Not the dedicated geeks, but children and casuals. Since it has the Legends banner, however, that shows the severe disrespect they have for fans. They think they are idiots, and so treat them accordingly that way. I think that's the main problem a lot of DC detractors have with the new management. For all his flaws, and all his shaded half-truths, and a few of his more facepalming comments, I don't think Mr. Lucas ever treated the fans as idiots. Not so with the new regime.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

I don't think it's a mystery at all why EU stuff was popular. The original film was the highest grossing film of all time. The original trilogy was structured in a way that would easily allow for future additions to the storyline, and the "lived in" aesthetic that Lucas wanted gave the impression that there was a story behind every little detail. It also catered to demographic groups most likely to invest themselves in a story's universe. Beyond that, the original trilogy was all there was for canon for a long time. Even the original Star Trek got a big boost in mystique for its relatively short run on tv, and that was still 79 episodes.

So with generations of fans growing up with Legends material being the only supplement to 3-6 movies, it's no surprise that the best of that material would be highly regarded. Even without commenting on the relative quality of EU stuff today, the amount of mainline canon material coming out now makes the EU feel more tangential (at least until they artificially withhold information from the films in order to stuff into comic books or whatever).

What makes the EU feel tangential? Have you seen the new canon content? Let's see... Rey is just a gender-swapped Luke Skywalker and renamed Jaina Solo in some LOTF/FOTJ fusion grafted onto ANH 2.0. RO is just DF grafted to the DS novel, except Jan Ors is renamed into Jyn Erso and replaced Kyle Katarn. The Solo movie is just the HST. And TROS is ROTJ meets the TT and DE. What definition of tangential are you going with? Because it's why many people say they don't have an original bone in their bodies, though something tells me it's just the pet stories the creative forces involved with the making of the ST were familiar with. Ironically, the most original movie of ST, TLJ, is also the most divisive. That should tell you something. And yet, it's all good if they'd only just continue printing EU novels under the Legends banner. That's not difficult at all, and they can't even do that for the fans.

I wasn't very clear. I mean the current EU feels more tangential (or supplementary, if you prefer) than Legends did in its heyday when it was the only new Star Wars content. Even if they end up borrowing EU content, it's not as centralized anymore since there's a more than decent chance that anything popular is going to make its way into live action television or film sooner rather than later.

[chaos42]

as ive said i just don't think that the rule of 2 works. thats just how i feel. and i just didn't read them because from what i saw of them and the bits i read that were pulled from it, i though the writing was weak.

[Thebestoftherest]

as ive said i just don't think that the rule of 2 works. thats just how i feel. and i just didn't read them because from what i saw of them and the bits i read that were pulled from it, i though the writing was weak.

Even in legends there was room for betrayal in the rule of two.