Should RPG's Include Non-Binary Options? Part 2 KOTOR Remake

[Winter]

But characters like Revan, Shepard or any of the Dragon Age PCs should be whatever we want them to be.

Why though? You just pointed out yourself, that a character as imagined by the creator should remain as envisioned by the creator. Geralt is straight white male, because his creator made him straight white male. Mara Jade is straight redhead, because she was created as a straight redhead. Now where does that allow to criticize the choice of the creator(s) of Revan to make "it" a straight him who was canonically in love with Bastilla? Why do you as a player get a choice in that matter, but not the former?

I'm guessing you're actually aiming at internal consistency, so that a character who is X in one medium, isn't Y in the other and I agree, but that kinda flies past your criticism and doesn't concern it even tangentially.

Because having a canonical Revan was something that was imposed by the higher-ups at Lucas Arts while letting players choose who Revan is was a choice made by developers.

In RPG's players are part of the creative staff and, as a result, are the ones who decide the final version of the story. That's one the reasons ME3's Ending is still so hated by many fans, because it was a choice forced upon us because BioWare wanted the game to end a certain way and just tossed all our choices aside to make that ending happen.

I said this elsewhere but the only things that will happen in every version of KOTOR, regardless of player choices are as follows.

Against the Jedi Counsels warnings Revan and his fellow Jedi Malak fought a war against the Mandalorians but then fell to the Dark Side only to lose their memory and then helped in the fight against the Sith. This is the only thing that will be true of the story regardless of player choices but everything else is up to player choice and given that KOTOR is one of the oldest stories in the Star Wars timeline so it can be left open to interpretation.

All that matters is that Revan fought against the Sith and defeated Malak, everything else is not as well known in universe thus making all versions canon which includes Revan's gender identity.

[clearspira]

In the trailer for KOTOR remake Bastila calls Revan the greatest Sith in Generations and then says, quote, "THEY must be stopped". Now this could be intended to be directed to the Sith in general but I do wonder if the game will allow Revan to be non-binary as well as Male or Female. As the title suggests this ties into the post I made about this very subject as to whether or not RPG's should include Non-Binary as an option for players as it's, sadly, not something we've seen much of in gaming in the last few years.

But it would be interesting if this game does give you the option as KOTOR originally was a BioWare game and choice is a big factor in their games and KOTOR was no different. Also, if Revan is given the option to have voice actors I wonder if they would include Non-Binary actors for a NB Revan?

Not a whole lot to add other then it would be nice to have the option for this upcoming remake.

Right here is a perfect example of what i've been saying about how confusing it is to try and have a non-grammatically correct pronoun in common usage.

We've been using the singular they since Yee Olden Dayes. It's only confusing if you think it should be. I speak as somebody who has written several short stories with non-binary characters. It's no more of an issue than writing a conversation between two people of the same gender and keeping track of which "he" or which "her" it is.

That is a terrible argument. That's like saying ''the word gay has meant happy since Yee Olden Days, therefore I should still be able to use it.'' In the same way that no one in the world would assume that if I called someone gay I would be calling them happy, no one but a very small subset of people would ever assume that ''they'' meant any less than two.

And as for the second part of this paragraph, I call bullshit on that. Everything becomes instantly more confusing when you remove the words he and she. And frankly, writing some fanfiction or some 99p Amazon book doesn't really count as an example. Show me a bestseller that uses ''they'' as a pronoun. I'll wait.

[clearspira]

In the trailer for KOTOR remake Bastila calls Revan the greatest Sith in Generations and then says, quote, "THEY must be stopped". Now this could be intended to be directed to the Sith in general but I do wonder if the game will allow Revan to be non-binary as well as Male or Female. As the title suggests this ties into the post I made about this very subject as to whether or not RPG's should include Non-Binary as an option for players as it's, sadly, not something we've seen much of in gaming in the last few years.

But it would be interesting if this game does give you the option as KOTOR originally was a BioWare game and choice is a big factor in their games and KOTOR was no different. Also, if Revan is given the option to have voice actors I wonder if they would include Non-Binary actors for a NB Revan?

Not a whole lot to add other then it would be nice to have the option for this upcoming remake.

Right here is a perfect example of what i've been saying about how confusing it is to try and have a non-grammatically correct pronoun in common usage.

True, but until such time as a pronoun is made for those who are non-binary we have to stick with what we got and what we got is They/Them.

I have a funny suspicion that you wouldn't use it. Am I wrong?

[TGLS]

In the trailer for KOTOR remake Bastila calls Revan the greatest Sith in Generations and then says, quote, "THEY must be stopped". Now this could be intended to be directed to the Sith in general but I do wonder if the game will allow Revan to be non-binary as well as Male or Female. As the title suggests this ties into the post I made about this very subject as to whether or not RPG's should include Non-Binary as an option for players as it's, sadly, not something we've seen much of in gaming in the last few years.

But it would be interesting if this game does give you the option as KOTOR originally was a BioWare game and choice is a big factor in their games and KOTOR was no different. Also, if Revan is given the option to have voice actors I wonder if they would include Non-Binary actors for a NB Revan?

Not a whole lot to add other then it would be nice to have the option for this upcoming remake.

Right here is a perfect example of what i've been saying about how confusing it is to try and have a non-grammatically correct pronoun in common usage.

True, but until such time as a pronoun is made for those who are non-binary we have to stick with what we got and what we got is They/Them.

I have a funny suspicion that you wouldn't use it. Am I wrong?

Would you use "Xe", "Zie", or "E"?

[Winter]

In the trailer for KOTOR remake Bastila calls Revan the greatest Sith in Generations and then says, quote, "THEY must be stopped". Now this could be intended to be directed to the Sith in general but I do wonder if the game will allow Revan to be non-binary as well as Male or Female. As the title suggests this ties into the post I made about this very subject as to whether or not RPG's should include Non-Binary as an option for players as it's, sadly, not something we've seen much of in gaming in the last few years.

But it would be interesting if this game does give you the option as KOTOR originally was a BioWare game and choice is a big factor in their games and KOTOR was no different. Also, if Revan is given the option to have voice actors I wonder if they would include Non-Binary actors for a NB Revan?

Not a whole lot to add other then it would be nice to have the option for this upcoming remake.

Right here is a perfect example of what i've been saying about how confusing it is to try and have a non-grammatically correct pronoun in common usage.

True, but until such time as a pronoun is made for those who are non-binary we have to stick with what we got and what we got is They/Them.

I have a funny suspicion that you wouldn't use it. Am I wrong?

Depends on the performance of the actors. I usually prefer to play as women but if I have played as men too and wouldn't mind playing as non-binary. In the end though, this is more about giving more options. Some players may not play as a Non-binary but others may very well.

But for me, it depends on the actor in question like if they got Jacob Tobia to play the role and you could role play as Double Trouble with them giving a similar performance I would play as a Non-Binary character because HELL YES I want to role play as the ultimate shoulder Devil.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

In the trailer for KOTOR remake Bastila calls Revan the greatest Sith in Generations and then says, quote, "THEY must be stopped". Now this could be intended to be directed to the Sith in general but I do wonder if the game will allow Revan to be non-binary as well as Male or Female. As the title suggests this ties into the post I made about this very subject as to whether or not RPG's should include Non-Binary as an option for players as it's, sadly, not something we've seen much of in gaming in the last few years.

But it would be interesting if this game does give you the option as KOTOR originally was a BioWare game and choice is a big factor in their games and KOTOR was no different. Also, if Revan is given the option to have voice actors I wonder if they would include Non-Binary actors for a NB Revan?

Not a whole lot to add other then it would be nice to have the option for this upcoming remake.

Right here is a perfect example of what i've been saying about how confusing it is to try and have a non-grammatically correct pronoun in common usage.

We've been using the singular they since Yee Olden Dayes. It's only confusing if you think it should be. I speak as somebody who has written several short stories with non-binary characters. It's no more of an issue than writing a conversation between two people of the same gender and keeping track of which "he" or which "her" it is.

That is a terrible argument. That's like saying ''the word gay has meant happy since Yee Olden Days, therefore I should still be able to use it.'' In the same way that no one in the world would assume that if I called someone gay I would be calling them happy, no one but a very small subset of people would ever assume that ''they'' meant any less than two.

And as for the second part of this paragraph, I call bullshit on that. Everything becomes instantly more confusing when you remove the words he and she. And frankly, writing some fanfiction or some 99p Amazon book doesn't really count as an example. Show me a bestseller that uses ''they'' as a pronoun. I'll wait.

Oh come on. You know this isn't really about grammar or about profitability. You're opposing this on purely ideological grounds. You're no different from the people who thought women using "Ms." instead of "Miss" or "Mrs." was unnecessary and offensive.

[goodperson25]

In the trailer for KOTOR remake Bastila calls Revan the greatest Sith in Generations and then says, quote, "THEY must be stopped". Now this could be intended to be directed to the Sith in general but I do wonder if the game will allow Revan to be non-binary as well as Male or Female. As the title suggests this ties into the post I made about this very subject as to whether or not RPG's should include Non-Binary as an option for players as it's, sadly, not something we've seen much of in gaming in the last few years.

But it would be interesting if this game does give you the option as KOTOR originally was a BioWare game and choice is a big factor in their games and KOTOR was no different. Also, if Revan is given the option to have voice actors I wonder if they would include Non-Binary actors for a NB Revan?

Not a whole lot to add other then it would be nice to have the option for this upcoming remake.

Right here is a perfect example of what i've been saying about how confusing it is to try and have a non-grammatically correct pronoun in common usage.

We've been using the singular they since Yee Olden Dayes. It's only confusing if you think it should be. I speak as somebody who has written several short stories with non-binary characters. It's no more of an issue than writing a conversation between two people of the same gender and keeping track of which "he" or which "her" it is.

That is a terrible argument. That's like saying ''the word gay has meant happy since Yee Olden Days, therefore I should still be able to use it.'' In the same way that no one in the world would assume that if I called someone gay I would be calling them happy, no one but a very small subset of people would ever assume that ''they'' meant any less than two.

And as for the second part of this paragraph, I call bullshit on that. Everything becomes instantly more confusing when you remove the words he and she. And frankly, writing some fanfiction or some 99p Amazon book doesn't really count as an example. Show me a bestseller that uses ''they'' as a pronoun. I'll wait.

That we use they as a singular all the time is the point, that it's been since Yee Olden Dayes is for emphasis. You may not notice but authors use it, young people use it, old people use it, poor people use it, people who complain about singular they not being a thing use it sometimes using it when talking about how singular they doesn't exist.

[hammerofglass]

In the trailer for KOTOR remake Bastila calls Revan the greatest Sith in Generations and then says, quote, "THEY must be stopped". Now this could be intended to be directed to the Sith in general but I do wonder if the game will allow Revan to be non-binary as well as Male or Female. As the title suggests this ties into the post I made about this very subject as to whether or not RPG's should include Non-Binary as an option for players as it's, sadly, not something we've seen much of in gaming in the last few years.

But it would be interesting if this game does give you the option as KOTOR originally was a BioWare game and choice is a big factor in their games and KOTOR was no different. Also, if Revan is given the option to have voice actors I wonder if they would include Non-Binary actors for a NB Revan?

Not a whole lot to add other then it would be nice to have the option for this upcoming remake.

Right here is a perfect example of what i've been saying about how confusing it is to try and have a non-grammatically correct pronoun in common usage.

We've been using the singular they since Yee Olden Dayes. It's only confusing if you think it should be. I speak as somebody who has written several short stories with non-binary characters. It's no more of an issue than writing a conversation between two people of the same gender and keeping track of which "he" or which "her" it is.

That is a terrible argument. That's like saying ''the word gay has meant happy since Yee Olden Days, therefore I should still be able to use it.'' In the same way that no one in the world would assume that if I called someone gay I would be calling them happy, no one but a very small subset of people would ever assume that ''they'' meant any less than two.

And as for the second part of this paragraph, I call bullshit on that. Everything becomes instantly more confusing when you remove the words he and she. And frankly, writing some fanfiction or some 99p Amazon book doesn't really count as an example. Show me a bestseller that uses ''they'' as a pronoun. I'll wait.

That we use they as a singular all the time is the point, that it's been since Yee Olden Dayes is for emphasis. You may not notice but authors use it, young people use it, old people use it, poor people use it, people who complain about singular they not being a thing use it sometimes using it when talking about how singular they doesn't exist.

To be fair, prescriptivist purists have been complaining about people using singular they for about three hundred years. It's not a new criticism.

The same "purists" who insist split infinitives are bad grammar because Latin doesn't have them, but still.

[Frustration]

What's going to happen in a few years when the next hot moral fad comes along and all the existing products aren't pandering to the new definition of righteousness?

Media creators should put in whatever they think forwards the story they want to convey and the game experience they want to attract purchasers with. Everything - and I mean everything - is subject to their whims alone when it comes to creation. What the market - the collective decisions of society - decides is entirely subject to its whims.

If you want something to appear in media, let the creators know that. Don't tell others what to do. There is an unsubtle distinction between these two acts.

[Thebestoftherest]

What's going to happen in a few years when the next hot moral fad comes along and all the existing products aren't pandering to the new definition of righteousness?

Media creators should put in whatever they think forwards the story they want to convey and the game experience they want to attract purchasers with. Everything - and I mean everything - is subject to their whims alone when it comes to creation. What the market - the collective decisions of society - decides is entirely subject to its whims.

If you want something to appear in media, let the creators know that. Don't tell others what to do. There is an unsubtle distinction between these two acts.

Morals at large change all the time and company change with them to avoid alienating potential clients.