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That's basically what Discovery's last two seasons have been.

Yes but it can never fully be that due to it starting in tos era

The problem isn't time period of the setting, the problem is that good stories aren't being told.

I recently caught part of Star Trek: Insurrection showing at my local game store, and I was reminded of what an absolutely terrible story it was, fully of 'action' and explosions but not of sensible actors or thoughtful exploration of philosophical issues.

I am rather of the opinion that the Golden Age of TNG was mostly a fluke, in the sense that the people in charge of the franchise have no idea why it was so beloved or how to reproduce it.

Your not wrong, there honestly.

Frustration wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:03 pm The problem isn't time period of the setting, the problem is that good stories aren't being told.

I recently caught part of Star Trek: Insurrection showing at my local game store, and I was reminded of what an absolutely terrible story it was, fully of 'action' and explosions but not of sensible actors or thoughtful exploration of philosophical issues.

I am rather of the opinion that the Golden Age of TNG was mostly a fluke, in the sense that the people in charge of the franchise have no idea why it was so beloved or how to reproduce it.

I think this would follow if the same people were in charge of the franchise today, but obviously it's different people. I agree that the people in charge of it today have no idea how to reproduce it, although in "fairness" to them (well, sort of, sort of not) I don't think they're trying to reproduce it, and the goals of "television" today are pretty different from those of the 1980s.

Did the people running the franchise in the mid to late 90s - some of whom were the same people as TNG - understand it and know how to reproduce it? I'd say not completely, but they got a heck of a lot closer than we are seeing today (though again, today they are ultimately trying to do something quite different).

Voyager, for instance, certainly wasn't as consistently good as TNG, but when they did hit the right marks it was pretty close. DS9 was great, but in its own way. Enterprise was a mixed bag, but I am overall more positive about it than most people on this board. Again, on its own it wasn't stupendous, but if we're comparing it to something like Strange New Worlds vs. TNG I think it hits more marks right.

I think it's ironic that you mention Insurrection because while I agree it's a lousy film, I always thought that in spirit or style it felt closer to TNG than any of the other films. I disagree that Insurrection was nothing but action and explosions, though it did have some of those. I think overall Insurrection was a poor film because in part precisely because it slowed down in a way that the series often did but which doesn't work for film. To me it always felt like a lower quality two-parter, something reminiscent of Gambit from season 7.

Voyager, as good as TNG? Maybe the poorer early seasons of TNG, at most.

Frustration wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:49 pm Voyager, as good as TNG?

That's not what was said. A superior being as you, should be able to comprehend what he reads.

Frustration wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:03 pm The problem isn't time period of the setting, the problem is that good stories aren't being told.

I recently caught part of Star Trek: Insurrection showing at my local game store, and I was reminded of what an absolutely terrible story it was, fully of 'action' and explosions but not of sensible actors or thoughtful exploration of philosophical issues.

I am rather of the opinion that the Golden Age of TNG was mostly a fluke, in the sense that the people in charge of the franchise have no idea why it was so beloved or how to reproduce it.

TNG and TOS are the only two shows out of eleven to ever break out into our cultural zeitgeist. I think that says a lot about the general standard of Trek over the years. Although I suppose you could say that its two and a half shows if you include Jeri Ryan's breasts.

clearspira wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:31 pm

Frustration wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:03 pm The problem isn't time period of the setting, the problem is that good stories aren't being told.

I recently caught part of Star Trek: Insurrection showing at my local game store, and I was reminded of what an absolutely terrible story it was, fully of 'action' and explosions but not of sensible actors or thoughtful exploration of philosophical issues.

I am rather of the opinion that the Golden Age of TNG was mostly a fluke, in the sense that the people in charge of the franchise have no idea why it was so beloved or how to reproduce it.

TNG and TOS are the only two shows out of eleven to ever break out into our cultural zeitgeist. I think that says a lot about the general standard of Trek over the years. Although I suppose you could say that its two and a half shows if you include Jeri Ryan's breasts.

I wouldn't count the other series's lack of being in the cultural zeitgeist against them. There are plenty of other shows good and bad that are part of that. Jersey Shore or Keeping up with Kardashians?

I don't think TNG is a fluke in its success. The first two seasons sucked to be sure, but they were restricted by Gene's idealogy bullshit. Once they were able to break away from it, seems like they knew what to do.

There was just too much going for TNG to be a fluke.

Frustration wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 6:49 pm Voyager, as good as TNG? Maybe the poorer early seasons of TNG, at most.

I said, "Voyager, for instance, certainly wasn't as consistently good as TNG, but when they did hit the right marks it was pretty close."

Generally, Voyager was worse than TNG, often much worse (though I think the worst of Voyager is probably better than much of season 1 TNG), but some of the highlights were nearly as good or in a few cases as good as anything TNG had. For example, Blink of an Eye is probably not quite up there with the best of TNG's "pure sci-fi" corpus, but it's close. Living Witness is probably on the list of the best episodes from any of the series. Bride of Chaotica is absolutely as good as any of TNG's "comic relief" episodes. I actually think that Equinox part 2 is a bit of a let down, but part 1 is strong. I significantly differ with the episode in its conclusion, but Death Wish handles the philosophical debate of the issue about as well as Measure of a Man (the conclusion of which I also don't agree with, at least not entirely). I don't like Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy as much as many people, but it's widely considered quite good. I'd roughly put Message in a Bottle in the same sort of box as episodes like TNG's Timescape or The Next Phase, but better.

I don't think Voyager has anything to compare with Darmok. I don't think it has anything to compare to The Inner Light. Although a lot of people rate Scorpion very highly, I don't think it remotely compares to Best of Both Worlds or Redemption in terms of those really top tier two part episodes.

TNG was better, but Voyager was able to reach average TNG quality sometimes, and in a few cases even to come close to the best of TNG.