The most confused morals in Star Trek (and other scifi)

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AllanO
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Re: The most confused morals in Star Trek (and other scifi)

Post by AllanO »

Darth Wedgius wrote: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:30 pm It could be that the implication was that that the initial fraud would not have been enough to ruin Tarses, but it does contradict the literal interpretation. Picard's speechifying, not writing a computer program, so you can consider a bunch of things are being left unspoken.
Note two scenes early he had this exchange with Satin.
TNG wrote: SATIE: And how, may I ask, have you managed to determine that?
PICARD: I've talked with him.
SATIE: I see. And he told you he was a victim of circumstance, blameless and pure.
PICARD: No, he admits his mistake in falsifying his application. That does not make him a traitor.
I actually looked that up before I responded to you earlier. So Satin knows that Picard has admitted the guys guilt of the falsifying his application charge, the later Picard speech has to be understood in light of that earlier admission.

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In terms of the the Marquis I always figured that the tactical and strategic situation at the point where the Feds and the Cardassians came to their agreement was something like this. There were lots of small Federation small colonies on the border (emphasis on the small most of the colonies we see seem to consist of like a dozen people). The Cardassians could and probably did at times wipe out these colonies with one photon torpedo, and the Federation had only limited ability to prevent that. So the longer the war/border skirmish went on the more colonies would be wiped out. If the fighting continued the Federation probably could have eventually achieved a sufficiently decisive position to get their claim on all the colony systems recognized but by that point most of the actual colonists would have been dead or displaced so kind of a hollow victory. So my read of the Marquis was always that they wanted to end the peace treaty that might well be the only thing keeping the colonists alive (even if under threat from Cardassian skulduggery). At least it seemed to me that was the kind of real politik that we were supposed to read in to the situation painted in DS9 episodes etc. based on historical analogies etc. This tempered my sympathy for their cause, so I could understand the characters lack of sympathy.

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Note that on the issue of the sexual conflicts of interest etc. it is hardly just the contemporary military that has lots of rules about this, for example spouses etc. of doctors in remote communities have to deal with the fact that usual medical ethics is that you don't sleep with your patients but in remote communities the only doctor is going to be the spouse, so it is not going to be logistically possible so at least in some jurisdictions need the spouse to sign a waiver or the like. The thing with Lessons is less that they have no rules compared to current military fraternization rules, its that they have no rules compared to civilian workplaces and institutions of our times.

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On the theme of confused morals and odd institutional structures compared to our own time: I remembered while pondering this was that when the most competent and beloved member of Voyager's crew, Reg Barclay, was introduced the doctor explains "I took the liberty of reviewing his personnel file. He's had a rather colourful career, not to mention an unusual medical history. He's recovered from a variety of maladies, including transporter phobia and holo-addiction. " So he's discussing Barclay's medical history in public in particular potentially embarrassing diagnosis like holo-addiction. Either the doctor's ethics protocols are on the fritz (again) or by the 24th century has done away with our primitive notions of privacy. Perhaps they also do daily announcements of who has been diagnosed with what STDs (maybe this is how Riker keeps score)...
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Madner Kami
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Re: The most confused morals in Star Trek (and other scifi)

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AllanO wrote: Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:13 amOn the theme of confused morals and odd institutional structures compared to our own time: I remembered while pondering this was that when the most competent and beloved member of Voyager's crew, Reg Barclay, was introduced the doctor explains "I took the liberty of reviewing his personnel file. He's had a rather colourful career, not to mention an unusual medical history. He's recovered from a variety of maladies, including transporter phobia and holo-addiction. " So he's discussing Barclay's medical history in public in particular potentially embarrassing diagnosis like holo-addiction. Either the doctor's ethics protocols are on the fritz (again) or by the 24th century has done away with our primitive notions of privacy. Perhaps they also do daily announcements of who has been diagnosed with what STDs (maybe this is how Riker keeps score)...
I'd file that under "the author doesn't think inside it's work". Both the viewer and the author already know Reg's deepest secrets, so spelling them out isn't a breech of patient-doctor confidentiality, as everyone the writer thinks about, already knows the secret. Bad writing 101. The inworld implications of such slip-ups are quite Orwellian in many regards and Star Trek got a fair share of such occurences. Computers that monitor everything and everyone 24/7 and recording it for later examination for example. Or everyone having access to private logs without any sort of authorization needed.
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Re: The most confused morals in Star Trek (and other scifi)

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I dunno, I'm actually willing to take that one at face value because the Doctor isn't an actual doctor. He's a medic or EMT. His job is to stabilize people and then proceed to turn them over to the actual medical staff....who are all dead on Voyager.

It also fits with the fact the otherwise quite tolerant Federation universally rejected the holograms in their ships. Zimmerman, after all, used his own prickly techbro personality for the basis of his doctor vs. someone like Doctor Crusher or even (Q help us) Bashir.
In terms of the the Marquis I always figured that the tactical and strategic situation at the point where the Feds and the Cardassians came to their agreement was something like this. There were lots of small Federation small colonies on the border (emphasis on the small most of the colonies we see seem to consist of like a dozen people). The Cardassians could and probably did at times wipe out these colonies with one photon torpedo, and the Federation had only limited ability to prevent that. So the longer the war/border skirmish went on the more colonies would be wiped out. If the fighting continued the Federation probably could have eventually achieved a sufficiently decisive position to get their claim on all the colony systems recognized but by that point most of the actual colonists would have been dead or displaced so kind of a hollow victory. So my read of the Marquis was always that they wanted to end the peace treaty that might well be the only thing keeping the colonists alive (even if under threat from Cardassian skulduggery). At least it seemed to me that was the kind of real politik that we were supposed to read in to the situation painted in DS9 episodes etc. based on historical analogies etc. This tempered my sympathy for their cause, so I could understand the characters lack of sympathy.
I admit, my interpretation is due to a bit of space racism on my part due to the fact the Cardassians are based on the Nazis and I don't have much sympathy for them in any medium. My interpretation was the Marquis are people who decided not to be evacuated from Cardassian to Federation territory due to the treaty they signed (like we saw with the Native American colony) with the idea they would be Cardassian citizens from that point.

And being Space Nazis, the Cardassians immediately broke any promises they made with the Federation to treat them fairly and abused them until the point they rose up to seek independence. Why did the Cardassians not do simply wipe them all out? Well, I don't know but I wouldn't be surprised if the colonies were NOT small and able to fight back.

Because they DO wipe out the colonies to the last once they have a decided advantage with the Dominion.
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Re: The most confused morals in Star Trek (and other scifi)

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Madner Kami wrote: Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:43 amI'd file that under "the author doesn't think inside it's work". Both the viewer and the author already know Reg's deepest secrets, so spelling them out isn't a breech of patient-doctor confidentiality, as everyone the writer thinks about, already knows the secret. Bad writing 101.
I agree that is probably what the writers were thinking, but won't most of the "confused morals" be subject to that kind of external explanation in terms of what made sense for the writer not thinking about the consequences in-story properly, telling the characters what we as the audience already knew, and so on?
CharlesPhipps wrote: Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:53 am I dunno, I'm actually willing to take that one at face value because the Doctor isn't an actual doctor. He's a medic or EMT. His job is to stabilize people and then proceed to turn them over to the actual medical staff....who are all dead on Voyager.
I would think maintaining basic medical privacy would be a pretty basic function and necessary even for an infrequently used EMH (seriously they can code the thing to do surgery but not to zip his lip about people's private medical data). It is similar to what Madner Kami mentioned about the computer just letting anyone access anyone's personal logs at any time with no justification. It is probably just bad writing, but if we ignore that explanation and treat it as an accurate description, it suggests at least negligence, if not active disregard for privacy.

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On the Marquis confusion arises because the set up in the TNG episode is different from the way it is used in Voyager and DS9. In the later stories there is a demilitarized zone where there are Cardassian systems and Federation systems, and I guess military from either side are supposed to stay out(?). But the Federation guys in the DMZ are under threat from irregular Cardassian activity (terrorism by Cardassians in the DMZ who are not at least officially military), so they decide to do some irregular stuff of their own.

If the Marquis were not Federation citizens (in DS9), our heroes would actually have to worry about them less because while they might not be able to aid Cardassian dissidents , they would be no under no obligation to actively stop them, they are Cardassia's problem.

The reason (given in show?) they keep having to stop the Marquis is that the Marquis are Federation citizens under Federation jurisdiction and if they don't try to stop them it would mean the Federation are tacitly supporting the Marquis and that the Marquis are actually a branch of the Federation military and that there attacks and military actions are in fact violations of the treaty and acts of war. At best scoring a massive diplomatic coup for the Cardassians and at worst restarting the war. Likewise the Cardassians have to at least maintain the appearance that they are not aiding or abetting the Cardassian colonists lest they get in trouble for treaty violations etc. hence why Gul Dukat helps our heroes out fighting the Cardassian colonists at times. Or at least I thought that was the way it was portrayed in DS9.
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Re: The most confused morals in Star Trek (and other scifi)

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AllanO wrote: Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:56 amI would think maintaining basic medical privacy would be a pretty basic function and necessary even for an infrequently used EMH (seriously they can code the thing to do surgery but not to zip his lip about people's private medical data). It is similar to what Madner Kami mentioned about the computer just letting anyone access anyone's personal logs at any time with no justification. It is probably just bad writing, but if we ignore that explanation and treat it as an accurate description, it suggests at least negligence, if not active disregard for privacy.
Well the majority of crew in these shows are officers and accessing their data is something which might be simply a matter of the fact Starfleet is very broad in its authority since the premise of the show is they are given broad authority due to a long time in hostile conditions. The "Age of Sail" in space so to speak.

But while it might be bad writing, I honestly think it fits the Doctor's character to be casual about things like that because he is a terrible doctor personality and has greatly exceeded as well as altered his parameters.
On the Marquis confusion arises because the set up in the TNG episode is different from the way it is used in Voyager and DS9. In the later stories there is a demilitarized zone where there are Cardassian systems and Federation systems, and I guess military from either side are supposed to stay out(?). But the Federation guys in the DMZ are under threat from irregular Cardassian activity (terrorism by Cardassians in the DMZ who are not at least officially military), so they decide to do some irregular stuff of their own.
I get the impression they're also still at war but have a ceasefire as O'Brian relates his story of murdering a Cardassian during an attack in recent memory while the exchange of planets is part of their formal peace treaty.
If the Marquis were not Federation citizens (in DS9), our heroes would actually have to worry about them less because while they might not be able to aid Cardassian dissidents , they would be no under no obligation to actively stop them, they are Cardassia's problem.
I think that part was actually clear that Federation citizens were assisting the Marquis as the typical idealistic Federation officers were jumping ship to join the fight ala the Spanish American War. They were also smuggling material from the Federation to the Marquis as a way of helping them fight back. As Quark talked to the Vulcan Lady, he did a double take over the fact she's an arms trafficker to the Marquis.
The reason (given in show?) they keep having to stop the Marquis is that the Marquis are Federation citizens under Federation jurisdiction and if they don't try to stop them it would mean the Federation are tacitly supporting the Marquis and that the Marquis are actually a branch of the Federation military and that there attacks and military actions are in fact violations of the treaty and acts of war. At best scoring a massive diplomatic coup for the Cardassians and at worst restarting the war. Likewise the Cardassians have to at least maintain the appearance that they are not aiding or abetting the Cardassian colonists lest they get in trouble for treaty violations etc. hence why Gul Dukat helps our heroes out fighting the Cardassian colonists at times. Or at least I thought that was the way it was portrayed in DS9.
Eh, the Cardassians didn't need to cover up their support of the colonists because no Cardassians were fighting Federation forces. The big thing, I think, is that huge numbers of Federation citizens stayed in Cardassian territory rather than a small number of them. The reverse wasn't shown to be the case and the Cardassians were colonizing "their worlds"
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Re: The most confused morals in Star Trek (and other scifi)

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On the theme of confused morals that are clearly the intended morals. The Cage/The Menagerie morals are that if your deformed best to live in a world of illusions (that "normal" people would die rather than be trapped in) rather than put up with the disgust and pity of those around you, (and in Menagerie) doubly so if you are also disabled (no other chance for a fulfilling life). Not just according to wishy washy human sentiment but rather to cold Vulcan logic. This has a partial external explanation by being a product of writers from a time when people were less accepting of visible deformity and the potential of people with disabilities to have fulfilling lives less appreciated, although I have to wonder if people at the time found it clueless and insulting.

Edit: Not sure this is a hopeful vision of the future...

An unintended confusion is why 20th century scientist Stephen Hawking has better technology to deal with his paralysis and inability to speak than 23rd century hero of the Federation Captain Pike?
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Re: The most confused morals in Star Trek (and other scifi)

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AllanO wrote: Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:25 pm Edit: Not sure this is a hopeful vision of the future...

An unintended confusion is why 20th century scientist Stephen Hawking has better technology to deal with his paralysis and inability to speak than 23rd century hero of the Federation Captain Pike?
Honestly, it's a failure of imagination combining the technology of the talking computer with the technology that lets Pike turn a light on and off.
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Re: The most confused morals in Star Trek (and other scifi)

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There's an easy answer there.

There's not really a story if Captain Pike can be healed of his injuries easily.
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Re: The most confused morals in Star Trek (and other scifi)

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Also because I'm sure Sean Kenney sounds different from Jeffrey Hunter.
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Re: The most confused morals in Star Trek (and other scifi)

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I mean, the entire point of the show is reusing the pilot to save money.
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