Force Awakens editor making waves

[Mecha82]

I am not sure why some people seem to be unable to understand what is going on in sequel trilogy when it's actually clear on first viewing. I guess some people are just unable to use they brains or just want to nitpick every little thing. So no, you don't need new EU to understand those movies.

[Captain Crimson]

I am not sure why some people seem to be unable to understand what is going on in sequel trilogy when it's actually clear on first viewing. I guess some people are just unable to use they brains or just want to nitpick every little thing. So no, you don't need new EU to understand those movies.

My impression seems to be you avoid the EU because you've had a bad experience with a few rotten apples, right? I mean, to me, one of the great things about the EU is that it, well... expanded the six movies. Mr. Lucas built a mythology, that he wanted to have a lived-in touch, and he himself admits it was just one piece of the larger puzzle. The story of Anakin Skywalker and his transformation into Darth Vader. Naturally, you're going to want to learn more about the world it inhabits. And six movies are not enough to get a grasp on the whole picture. So, if you were ever curious about the various plot holes in the prequels, well, the EU fills those in. While the new stuff has a lot of good cinematography, battles, and fight sequences, and a respectable start at building a new lore, I still miss the old EU. There is so much left to explore that is likely to never happen.

Also, perhaps this is a minor point, but... you're on an SF messageboard... and rail against nitpicking? No offense, but it kind of seems to come with the territory. I mean, granted, Mr. Chuck is right that you can take it too far, but on the other hand, it seems an innate part of fandom. Especially SF fandom, which has been notably praised for its attention to detail in the past.

[Winter]

I am not sure why some people seem to be unable to understand what is going on in sequel trilogy when it's actually clear on first viewing. I guess some people are just unable to use they brains or just want to nitpick every little thing. So no, you don't need new EU to understand those movies.

How is Phasma alive and how did she avoid getting in trouble for lowering the shields?
Who are the Knights of Ren?
How does Rey know how to use for Force without any training?
Why did Finn and Poe act suprised when they saw Jet Troopers?
How did Palpatine Survive?
What was "The Dead Speak" Referring to?
How did Luke and Leia know Rey was a Palpatine?
Why did Rey's Parents Sell her to Unkar Plutt instead of bringing Rey to her to Luke's School?
Who is Rey's father?
Who is Rey's Mother?
Why did Snoke want Rey to be killed if Palpatine wanted her alive?
And what was Finn going to tell Rey?

Answer all these questions, WITHOUT referring to the Supplementary Material or comments made by the creators AFTER the film was released and you'll start to see the problem. As Chuck said in his review of Sunshine having Supplementary Material is a good thing. It helps the people who are making the film make more money and fans of the work get more of what they want.

But if something from that story is removed that is a vital part of the film and without renders the story incomplete or confusing. It's not the job of the audience to do homework to understand what is going on in the story and anytime a series starts to go, "It makes perfect sense as long as you read up on everything before going in." That's a problem.

[Captain Crimson]

I am not sure why some people seem to be unable to understand what is going on in sequel trilogy when it's actually clear on first viewing. I guess some people are just unable to use they brains or just want to nitpick every little thing. So no, you don't need new EU to understand those movies.

How is Phasma alive and how did she avoid getting in trouble for lowering the shields?
Who are the Knights of Ren?
How does Rey know how to use for Force without any training?
Why did Finn and Poe act suprised when they saw Jet Troopers?
How did Palpatine Survive?
What was "The Dead Speak" Referring to?
How did Luke and Leia know Rey was a Palpatine?
Why did Rey's Parents Sell her to Unkar Plutt instead of bringing Rey to her to Luke's School?
Who is Rey's father?
Who is Rey's Mother?
Why did Snoke want Rey to be killed if Palpatine wanted her alive?
And what was Finn going to tell Rey?

Answer all these questions, WITHOUT referring to the Supplementary Material or comments made by the creators AFTER the film was released and you'll start to see the problem. As Chuck said in his review of Sunshine having Supplementary Material is a good thing. It helps the people who are making the film make more money and fans of the work get more of what they want.

But if something from that story is removed that is a vital part of the film and without renders the story incomplete or confusing. It's not the job of the audience to do homework to understand what is going on in the story and anytime a series starts to go, "It makes perfect sense as long as you read up on everything before going in." That's a problem.

That is also entirely consistent to the remarks of Mr. Abrams, Mr. Martin, and others. Don't think, just enjoy it. Trying to maintain continuity is too hard now, it seems. Makes you pine for the days of Mr. Lucas. My worst fear is that as the new lore gets closer to the era of TLJ, they will try and retcon it away to make fans happy, since the movie will have been released years then, I assume. And while some bitter fanboys might cheer, I think that is a VERY bad idea. It will mean canon is literally irrelevant. But then that's what they demonstrated in 2014. If you want to watch Disney SW, you need to approach it from that angle. "Just shut up, don't think, and try and find what you can enjoy." There is plenty.

EDIT: BTW, we do have some information on Rey's father, it seems. He was a failed Palpatine clone, made that way most likely so that no one would have to think of the sheer horror of Palpatine having relations with some poor woman. And that's why they said he was a nobody. I think that works, structurally, in the context of the new canon.

[Mecha82]

Thing is how fandoms consider canon and continuety to be everything is ridicilous and tends to override everything else. No wonder fandoms have gotten so toxic when they are so focused on something so trivial. In Japan they don't care about those. Instead everything is made to be enjoyed and not to be considered too deeply. When you have Goku, Naruto and Toriko crossover you are not supposed to think it as canon to they own series. Toksusatsu crossovers also work on that logic as well.

[Captain Crimson]

Thing is how fandoms consider canon and continuety to be everything is ridicilous and tends to override everything else. No wonder fandoms have gotten so toxic when they are so focused on something so trivial. In Japan they don't care about those. Instead everything is made to be enjoyed and not to be considered too deeply. When you have Goku, Naruto and Toriko crossover you are not supposed to think it as canon to they own series. Toksusatsu crossovers also work on that logic as well.

It is interesting you bring up Japan, since I often wonder why their business practices seem to be far smarter. Twice now Legends fans have bought a billboard asking for more Legends. The second time, they bought two. And they made some valid points. They were polite, they said more SW is good for everyone, and that's how they're spending their money. Yet LF shows no interest in going back to that world, despite the money it could bring in. In Japan, they absolutely would have returned long before now, I feel. Is it pride? Ego? I have no idea. Fandom isn't the only toxic event here. LF can be that way in spades.

Continuity matters. If it doesn't, you get something like VOY. Did you like VOY? If you did, that's great. But there is no denying it is also a mess. Because you seem to be extra defensive here. And if you're in the minority on the board, I could sense how perhaps that would feel a bit intimidating. All things being equal, though, you don't have to defend your position. Whatever you love, awesome. It's just a hobby, anyway. It's phony, fake, made-up, fictional, make-believe... so I could sympathize with your point that watching so many people freak out over nothing could get grating.

By the same token, though, it should be beyond doubt or reproach that LF is terrified. Because there is so much money at stake, it's hard to shake off that motivation. I think a lot of this pointless fandom conflict could have been avoided if LF had conducted itself more professionally. Like Mr. Howard. And there is certainly room to criticize them. I just think a lot of it gets overblown, but you should always question their motives, and wonder if there's truth there.

[TGLS]

Continuity doesn't matter. If it does, you get something like STD. Did you like STD? If you did, that's great. But there is no denying it is also a mess.

Yeah, I can pick bad examples too.

It is interesting you bring up Japan, since I often wonder why their business practices seem to be far smarter.

Two options:
1) Japan's a far more domestic focused market, and is more sensitive to domestic fans.
2) Japan's a far more domestic focused market, and we aren't seeing most of their content.

Actually, thinking about that way makes sense. Why doesn't Disney want to go back to Legends? They consider Star Wars Avengers B. Layer a bunch of prerequisite material behind it and no one in China will watch it.

Well that, and:

Realistically, Disney had a choice:

1. Keep the EU and try to explain the multiple galaxy-shaking arcs to movie fans who are completely ignorant of that content while trying to tell a new story. Chewie’s dead, Han and Leia’s daughter killed her twin brother after he went Sith… all of that.

2. Jettison the EU and come up with something new, while reserving the right to reintroduce Legends elements into the new canon.

3. Try to split the difference by either telling a story so insignificant that it had no effect on The Team’s EU stories, or excluding The Team entirely. Like, say, a trilogy set during the New Jedi Order conflict with the Yuuzhan Vong.

There’s no contest. Jettisoning the EU from canon was the only realistic option.

[Dargaron]

Thing is how fandoms consider canon and continuety to be everything is ridicilous and tends to override everything else. No wonder fandoms have gotten so toxic when they are so focused on something so trivial. In Japan they don't care about those. Instead everything is made to be enjoyed and not to be considered too deeply. When you have Goku, Naruto and Toriko crossover you are not supposed to think it as canon to they own series. Toksusatsu crossovers also work on that logic as well.

#1 How is Phasma alive and how did she avoid getting in trouble for lowering the shields?
#2 Who are the Knights of Ren?
#3 How did Palpatine Survive?
#4 What was "The Dead Speak" Referring to?
#5 How did Luke and Leia know Rey was a Palpatine?
#6 Why did Rey's Parents Sell her to Unkar Plutt instead of bringing Rey to her to Luke's School?
#7 Why did Snoke want Rey to be killed if Palpatine wanted her alive?
#8 And what was Finn going to tell Rey?

I'm not sure how any of these points can be considered "trivial" by any stretch of the word. Points #1 and #3 in particular undermine a lot of the actual payoff of Rise of Skywalker: if characters can come back from the dead (or escape near-certain doom without explanation), then why should we believe the movie when it tells us that Palpatine is dead, super-honest-for-real-this-time-guys? After all, he "died" last time, and look how long that lasted? Why should we accept Ren's "heroic sacrifice" when it's perfectly likely that in Star Wars 10: The Force Reawakens, he'll be revealed to be possessing a droid body, or sent his consciousness into a paraplegic or something else silly like that.

Point #2 is a pretty big deal: the Knights of Ren have been built up as some sinister threat since TFA, yet we don't know anything more about them by the time they're unceremoniously killed than when the series started. Compare the Nazgul of LOTR fame, where we are introduced to their basic concept fairly early in Fellowship (they're corrupted men bound by the power of the Rings), learn new things about them over the course of the movies (they are afraid of fire and water, they have flying mounts, they have individual personalities, and at least one of them is vulnerable to being stabbed by a woman), and by the end of it, when they are finally destroyed, it's by a method that makes sense in-universe (they were sustained by the power of the One Ring, so its destruction led to their demise). Are the Knights of Ren some kind of droid? Are they human? Are they former students of Luke that Ren corrupted? Why do they serve Palpatine over Ren, their ostensible "master?"

To be entirely honest, until TROS, I had assumed that the guards Kylo and Rey killed in the Throne Room duel were the Knights of Ren, because their weapons had iconographic similarities to Kylo's, they were elite melee-weapon users in service of Snoke, and it would be a reasonable genre assumption to think that "knights" are responsible for guarding royalty (which Snoke was clearly presented as emulating). It would make sense that their armor was a different color than Ren's, given how we've seen Captain Phasma's rank designated by giving her differently-colored stormtrooper armor. Likewise, "rank-and-file" Knights of Ren wear red, the Master wears black-and-red; rank-and-file use pseudo lightsabers, the Master uses the real deal. These aesthetic decisions are understandable.

Point #7 is also far from "trivial," because it means that either a: Snoke was unable to sense the fact that Rey was descended from his master/creator (and hence, the host body he wants) even while actively meddling in her mind, or b: was intentionally working against Palpatine's own interests when he ordered her killed. The first is highly implausible; the second is a massive plot development that would completely change how we look at Snoke's behavior if it were true. Of course, the correct answer is C: the Rise of Skywalker hadn't been planned when TLJ was put together, and no one realized that they'd slipped up.

Point #8 is something that the movie intentionally draws attention towards, yet never addresses. If the movie draws my attention to something, then I assume that something is relevant, and if it isn't, then I have to ask why you, director/writer/actor, are wasting my time, when there are so many other irrelevant things being skipped over (like, say, bathroom breaks or travel time). To quote Chuck (unfortunately, I forget which review it was) "I do pay attention to what you put on the -expletive- screen!"

[Mecha82]

Thing is how fandoms consider canon and continuety to be everything is ridicilous and tends to override everything else. No wonder fandoms have gotten so toxic when they are so focused on something so trivial. In Japan they don't care about those. Instead everything is made to be enjoyed and not to be considered too deeply. When you have Goku, Naruto and Toriko crossover you are not supposed to think it as canon to they own series. Toksusatsu crossovers also work on that logic as well.

It is interesting you bring up Japan, since I often wonder why their business practices seem to be far smarter. Twice now Legends fans have bought a billboard asking for more Legends. The second time, they bought two. And they made some valid points. They were polite, they said more SW is good for everyone, and that's how they're spending their money. Yet LF shows no interest in going back to that world, despite the money it could bring in. In Japan, they absolutely would have returned long before now, I feel. Is it pride? Ego? I have no idea. Fandom isn't the only toxic event here. LF can be that way in spades.

Continuity matters. If it doesn't, you get something like VOY. Did you like VOY? If you did, that's great. But there is no denying it is also a mess. Because you seem to be extra defensive here. And if you're in the minority on the board, I could sense how perhaps that would feel a bit intimidating. All things being equal, though, you don't have to defend your position. Whatever you love, awesome. It's just a hobby, anyway. It's phony, fake, made-up, fictional, make-believe... so I could sympathize with your point that watching so many people freak out over nothing could get grating.

By the same token, though, it should be beyond doubt or reproach that LF is terrified. Because there is so much money at stake, it's hard to shake off that motivation. I think a lot of this pointless fandom conflict could have been avoided if LF had conducted itself more professionally. Like Mr. Howard. And there is certainly room to criticize them. I just think a lot of it gets overblown, but you should always question their motives, and wonder if there's truth there.

Well for one they don't have to deal with obnoxious canon and continuity obsessed fandoms. Instead they can just focus to telling stories.

Okay let's make one thing straight. Thing is while I am not biggest fan of Disney and they practices it's difficult for me to take side of fandom when it's what it is and I have seen it be like that several years straight. I am sorry if it seems like I am being hostile towards certain part of fandom but being exposed to it so long has made me lose faith to all fandoms. Especially when they act way they do and tend to go out of line. Anyone who harrasses actors and other people involved won't get sympathy from me.

Yes LF could had interacted better with those toxic fans but then again I can't blame them from it either. After all fans like that can't be reasoned with. All they care about is to get to act like inmature children and bullies. So I doubt there would had been way to avoid this least. After all person might be smart but people are dangerous animals.

What I find funny is that fans of old EU treat it sacred thing that's flawless masterpiece that LF can't take things from and add to they version. Fans don't own SW, LF does. So LF can do what they see to be best for them and to serve story that they want to tell without needing approval of toxic fans when they goal isn't to gater to that group that want to gatekeep franchise just because they seem to believe that because they like it they some how own it.

I might to accept it but what LF did with old EU was only option they had. It allowed them to add to the story from clean slate without burden of all novels, comic books and video games. Especially when you realize that there was no practical way to tell those stories from old EU in live action form since time had passed so much and OT cast is already too old to roles of they younger versions.

[Mecha82]

Thing is how fandoms consider canon and continuety to be everything is ridicilous and tends to override everything else. No wonder fandoms have gotten so toxic when they are so focused on something so trivial. In Japan they don't care about those. Instead everything is made to be enjoyed and not to be considered too deeply. When you have Goku, Naruto and Toriko crossover you are not supposed to think it as canon to they own series. Toksusatsu crossovers also work on that logic as well.

#1 How is Phasma alive and how did she avoid getting in trouble for lowering the shields?
#2 Who are the Knights of Ren?
#3 How did Palpatine Survive?
#4 What was "The Dead Speak" Referring to?
#5 How did Luke and Leia know Rey was a Palpatine?
#6 Why did Rey's Parents Sell her to Unkar Plutt instead of bringing Rey to her to Luke's School?
#7 Why did Snoke want Rey to be killed if Palpatine wanted her alive?
#8 And what was Finn going to tell Rey?

I'm not sure how any of these points can be considered "trivial" by any stretch of the word. Points #1 and #3 in particular undermine a lot of the actual payoff of Rise of Skywalker: if characters can come back from the dead (or escape near-certain doom without explanation), then why should we believe the movie when it tells us that Palpatine is dead, super-honest-for-real-this-time-guys? After all, he "died" last time, and look how long that lasted? Why should we accept Ren's "heroic sacrifice" when it's perfectly likely that in Star Wars 10: The Force Reawakens, he'll be revealed to be possessing a droid body, or sent his consciousness into a paraplegic or something else silly like that.

Point #2 is a pretty big deal: the Knights of Ren have been built up as some sinister threat since TFA, yet we don't know anything more about them by the time they're unceremoniously killed than when the series started. Compare the Nazgul of LOTR fame, where we are introduced to their basic concept fairly early in Fellowship (they're corrupted men bound by the power of the Rings), learn new things about them over the course of the movies (they are afraid of fire and water, they have flying mounts, they have individual personalities, and at least one of them is vulnerable to being stabbed by a woman), and by the end of it, when they are finally destroyed, it's by a method that makes sense in-universe (they were sustained by the power of the One Ring, so its destruction led to their demise). Are the Knights of Ren some kind of droid? Are they human? Are they former students of Luke that Ren corrupted? Why do they serve Palpatine over Ren, their ostensible "master?"

To be entirely honest, until TROS, I had assumed that the guards Kylo and Rey killed in the Throne Room duel were the Knights of Ren, because their weapons had iconographic similarities to Kylo's, they were elite melee-weapon users in service of Snoke, and it would be a reasonable genre assumption to think that "knights" are responsible for guarding royalty (which Snoke was clearly presented as emulating). It would make sense that their armor was a different color than Ren's, given how we've seen Captain Phasma's rank designated by giving her differently-colored stormtrooper armor. Likewise, "rank-and-file" Knights of Ren wear red, the Master wears black-and-red; rank-and-file use pseudo lightsabers, the Master uses the real deal. These aesthetic decisions are understandable.

Point #7 is also far from "trivial," because it means that either a: Snoke was unable to sense the fact that Rey was descended from his master/creator (and hence, the host body he wants) even while actively meddling in her mind, or b: was intentionally working against Palpatine's own interests when he ordered her killed. The first is highly implausible; the second is a massive plot development that would completely change how we look at Snoke's behavior if it were true. Of course, the correct answer is C: the Rise of Skywalker hadn't been planned when TLJ was put together, and no one realized that they'd slipped up.

Point #8 is something that the movie intentionally draws attention towards, yet never addresses. If the movie draws my attention to something, then I assume that something is relevant, and if it isn't, then I have to ask why you, director/writer/actor, are wasting my time, when there are so many other irrelevant things being skipped over (like, say, bathroom breaks or travel time). To quote Chuck (unfortunately, I forget which review it was) "I do pay attention to what you put on the -expletive- screen!"

All of those are simple to understand without any supplemental material.

1. It's clear that Phasma isn't stupid so it makes sense to assume that she was able to wipe traces of her involment and escape.

2. All we need to know based on what we see is that Knights of Ren are group of dark side users.

3. We know that Palpatine has plans within plans so him surviving isn't big deal.

4. Palpatine's speech since everyone had thought that he was dead.

5. Through The Force.

6. To keep her as far away from her grandfather's reach as possible.

7. Possibly contradicting orders.

8. This one doesn't matter but it was most likely "I love you".

I got all those just by watching movies and paying attention. Oh and I had no doubt when watching TLJ that those guys in red armor protecting Snoke were his version of Royal Guards instead of Knights of Ren. We even learned what they are called trough them having toys.