Why Palpatine Influcing Kylo Ren was a Bad Idea

[Winter]

I dunno, I don't have any problem with Palpatine's resurrection. In fact, I'd argue it's the one decent part of this.

To each their own but for me it just felt like just another middle finger to the first two Trilogies. With this resurrection and making Palpatine the master mind behind Kylo and the First Order it renders the success of the heroes in the Original Trilogy and Anakin's 6 film character arc completely meaningless since Palpatine was never defeated and just ended up winning because of (footage not found).

And that's the other problem HOW did Palpatine survive?! He BLEW UP and then the Death Star he was on BLEW UP!!! All we get is "The Force does whatever the plot needs it to because it's magic. We don't have to explain it" and if you want more go read the comics, novels, what the TV Shows and play the games because the film is to lazy to explain anything on it's own.

Again, She-Ra handled this so much better. We don't really get much of an explanation for Horde Prime but we A) We don't really need that much of an Explanation for him and B) what we do get is enough and most of the unanswered questions are things we don't need to know as many of us don't care about. BUT we Do need to know how Palpatine came back after Lucas made it very clear that he was dead.

I think my biggest issue with Palpatine's return (besides it continuing the trend of screwing up the story of the first two Trilogies) is that Kennedy and others pointed to Dark Empire as to why they were rebooting Star Wars because they felt a story like this was bad enough to justify rebooting the series... And then they do the same story only somehow WORSE! At least Dark Empire had a real sense of dread and made better use of Palpatine and tied it into Luke's arc for the story. It wasn't great but it was better executed IMO.

[McAvoy]

I dunno, I don't have any problem with Palpatine's resurrection. In fact, I'd argue it's the one decent part of this.

Oddly, it's that Palpatine is Rey's grandfather.

I would have actually accepted that she's a science experiment he made in a jar somewhere. Just not that he'd ever have a child and not dissect it or corrupt it.

Actually that would have been an interesting idea, she is some Sith experiment stolen from Palpatine. Then you would have the whole movie of her trying to figure out who and what she is, as she doesn't have any family.

Again, there are so many ways to make a Episode 9 more interesting even with bringing back Palpatine. But no Abrams went safe and went to his default thing.

[CharlesPhipps]

To each their own but for me it just felt like just another middle finger to the first two Trilogies. With this resurrection and making Palpatine the master mind behind Kylo and the First Order it renders the success of the heroes in the Original Trilogy and Anakin's 6 film character arc completely meaningless since Palpatine was never defeated and just ended up winning because of (footage not found).

I find this logic weird because it's a serial. It's attempting to separate the third trilogy from the first two as well when obviously, it is the CONTINUING ADVENTURES of the characters. It's like being shocked that MING THE MERCILESS or Doctor Doom is alive.

Well duh.

They're comic book adventures and the bad guy returns to wreck havoc so our heroes can beat him again.

[Madner Kami]

To each their own but for me it just felt like just another middle finger to the first two Trilogies. With this resurrection and making Palpatine the master mind behind Kylo and the First Order it renders the success of the heroes in the Original Trilogy and Anakin's 6 film character arc completely meaningless since Palpatine was never defeated and just ended up winning because of (footage not found).

I find this logic weird because it's a serial. It's attempting to separate the third trilogy from the first two as well when obviously, it is the CONTINUING ADVENTURES of the characters. It's like being shocked that MING THE MERCILESS or Doctor Doom is alive.

Well duh.

They're comic book adventures and the bad guy returns to wreck havoc so our heroes can beat him again.

Continuing a series isn't synonymous with treading the same tracks over and over again.

[CharlesPhipps]

To each their own but for me it just felt like just another middle finger to the first two Trilogies. With this resurrection and making Palpatine the master mind behind Kylo and the First Order it renders the success of the heroes in the Original Trilogy and Anakin's 6 film character arc completely meaningless since Palpatine was never defeated and just ended up winning because of (footage not found).

I find this logic weird because it's a serial. It's attempting to separate the third trilogy from the first two as well when obviously, it is the CONTINUING ADVENTURES of the characters. It's like being shocked that MING THE MERCILESS or Doctor Doom is alive.

Well duh.

They're comic book adventures and the bad guy returns to wreck havoc so our heroes can beat him again.

Continuing a series isn't synonymous with treading the same tracks over and over again.

All six previous movies are about Palpatine's evil and fascism, though. So I don't see why the remaining three shouldn't.

[phantom000]

All six previous movies are about Palpatine's evil and fascism, though. So I don't see why the remaining three shouldn't.

I'm not saying you can't do that, but it needs to be handled properly. It's like when they revealed that Norman Osbourne was supposed to be behind the Clone Saga all along. It doesn't add anything to the story and only raises more questions. It can also be a problem later because if you can only have this one character as the big bad villain then it limits what kind of stories you can tell with it.

Personally, I always thought this was kind of a flaw with Star Wars because the Jedi and Sith seem like the same story being told over and over again. It's like anytime someone wanted to write about force users they had to use the exact same mold. I think TDST has kinda the same issue in that its scared to stray too far from what the established formula, but at the same time they don't know how to reinvent it.

[Beastro]

To each their own but for me it just felt like just another middle finger to the first two Trilogies. With this resurrection and making Palpatine the master mind behind Kylo and the First Order it renders the success of the heroes in the Original Trilogy and Anakin's 6 film character arc completely meaningless since Palpatine was never defeated and just ended up winning because of (footage not found).

I find this logic weird because it's a serial. It's attempting to separate the third trilogy from the first two as well when obviously, it is the CONTINUING ADVENTURES of the characters. It's like being shocked that MING THE MERCILESS or Doctor Doom is alive.

Well duh.

They're comic book adventures and the bad guy returns to wreck havoc so our heroes can beat him again.

That is the fundamental problem with comic book adventures and why they are and will always remain, shallow, trashy, "baby's first" mythology until they let go of that and mature.

They refuse to allow limitation and loss to factor into their stories and so lose all importance to their storytelling. It is the fundamental problem with Superman when he was so powerful no drama could happen because he could always solve it without effort.

There must be ends. There must be history built up. Every mythological figure experiences an end and that lends meaning to their stories. The Illiad wouldn't be the Illiad if we found out the Trojans and their slain allies were resurrected and the city rebuilt elsewhere to fight a Second Trojan War.... and a third... and a fourth.... and a fifth.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if this is a problem of Modernist linear thinking. Pagan Ancients had a cyclical view of the world, so retelling a story over and over fit with their worldview, but ours sees time as a line that cannot go back on itself, so to repeat the acts of superheroes one must have them repeat the same acts in different ways to conform with linearity.... I need to think about this more as superheroes are primeval religion just starting out.

All six previous movies are about Palpatine's evil and fascism, though. So I don't see why the remaining three shouldn't.

I'm not saying you can't do that, but it needs to be handled properly. It's like when they revealed that Norman Osbourne was supposed to be behind the Clone Saga all along. It doesn't add anything to the story and only raises more questions. It can also be a problem later because if you can only have this one character as the big bad villain then it limits what kind of stories you can tell with it.

Personally, I always thought this was kind of a flaw with Star Wars because the Jedi and Sith seem like the same story being told over and over again. It's like anytime someone wanted to write about force users they had to use the exact same mold. I think TDST has kinda the same issue in that its scared to stray too far from what the established formula, but at the same time they don't know how to reinvent it.

RLM's prime criticism of Star Wars, which I somewhat agree with, is that it's a scope stretched wayyy out of proportion to fit more stuff into a world set narrowly by the first movie. As a result, it repeats the same dramas and motifs while desperately trying and failing to be something more than what the first film presented.

[McAvoy]

Star Wars has been suffering from the 'big galactic threat' and Jedi versus Sith problem for a long time. One of the criticisms of the Legends books was that. I think that came around the YV (the aliens with biological enhancements and ships and I can't spell that name).

[Winter]

Star Wars has been suffering from the 'big galactic threat' and Jedi versus Sith problem for a long time. One of the criticisms of the Legends books was that. I think that came around the YV (the aliens with biological enhancements and ships and I can't spell that name).

Well, that IS the main premises of the series, much like how Doctor Who is about a mad man/woman with a box going around the galaxy as they fight evil and save the day. Or how Star Trek is about exploring the unknown, or James Bond being a spy while doing very little spy work and so on. Even the Twilight Zone is all about the strange and unusual being explored be it someone becoming Santa Claus or being a book worm learning he's the last man on Earth.

Even if a series is rebooted it will ALWAYS retain it's main premises or else it's not that series. Tomb Raider was still about Lara Croft raiding tombs, She-Ra was still about the title character fighting the Evil Horde and Ghostbusters: Answer the Call was still about a bunch of scientist catching Ghosts with technology. So, this isn't so much a problem as it's just what the series is about and even Lucas' unmade Star Wars: Underworld series was still about this idea only explored from a different angle.

[CharlesPhipps]

That is the fundamental problem with comic book adventures and why they are and will always remain, shallow, trashy, "baby's first" mythology until they let go of that and mature.

Speaking as a literature teacher at the college level for a time, I found this attitude bullshit.

Comic books and Star Wars mean shit to people more than a lot of "literature" and you don't need to be "deep" to be the most important thing to people.

Or just fun.

Star Wars should have been fun first.