Is Rey too Powerful?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Rey concentrates, stares directly at the stormtrooper, and slowly and purposefully says what she wants him to do, with deliberate emphasis.

If you didn't know how the Mind Trick works, and had only rumors and stories which were exaggerated into near-legends, and were greatly emotionally distressed by terror and apprehension, why would you do any of those things, especially if you didn't know you were Force-sensitive?

It's not so much a matter of time, as the possession of appropriate knowledge. No explanation is ever given for how Rey knows this - not that she was trained as a very young child and has forgotten, no Force ghosts giving her guidance, nothing. Zip, zilch, nada.

Because she's a Rey.

And we're back to square 1 with table top rpg rules.

There's no established rulebook on how the mindtrick works. Flying a spacecraft and firing torpedos guided by the force... we have 2 instances of that, and that's it for the all we know about "learning how to force."

Bad writing, you can call it that. It's not exciting, again, because anyone can call it "bad writing" for any reason. By terms of writing though, it's specifically not breaking rules as much as not showing what you want to see.

If not bad writing, then how do you explain how she goes from ''the Force was a legend that you just told me was real' to mind trick in six(?) hours?

That is Hagrid telling Harry that he is a wizard and then pulling off a Patronus just after he buys a wand from Diagon Alley.

Honestly it was more like me saying that "bad writing" is rather loaded, specifically for the charges often brought against the movie here and by fandom sorts for SW in general. The argument imo comes off as a no true Scotsman.

I think it's fair to lean into the wind here while telling you specifically that that's generally how the force operates. You seem to be constricted to considering that it only involves deliberate cognitive control by the agent, but that's not the case regarding the Skywalkers piloting or Obi-Wan's fighting resilience. Every instruction of the force involves letting it do it's thing with you as much as you telling it what to do.

So suddenly the fact that it made a woman accidentally do a mind control trick is supposed to be rubbish because it is the most unprecedented thing next to, maybe, immaculate conception?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I think the arc of Rey is on rails, if I can be so alliterate, myself.

[McAvoy]

Rey concentrates, stares directly at the stormtrooper, and slowly and purposefully says what she wants him to do, with deliberate emphasis.

If you didn't know how the Mind Trick works, and had only rumors and stories which were exaggerated into near-legends, and were greatly emotionally distressed by terror and apprehension, why would you do any of those things, especially if you didn't know you were Force-sensitive?

It's not so much a matter of time, as the possession of appropriate knowledge. No explanation is ever given for how Rey knows this - not that she was trained as a very young child and has forgotten, no Force ghosts giving her guidance, nothing. Zip, zilch, nada.

Because she's a Rey.

And we're back to square 1 with table top rpg rules.

There's no established rulebook on how the mindtrick works. Flying a spacecraft and firing torpedos guided by the force... we have 2 instances of that, and that's it for the all we know about "learning how to force."

Bad writing, you can call it that. It's not exciting, again, because anyone can call it "bad writing" for any reason. By terms of writing though, it's specifically not breaking rules as much as not showing what you want to see.

If not bad writing, then how do you explain how she goes from ''the Force was a legend that you just told me was real' to mind trick in six(?) hours?

That is Hagrid telling Harry that he is a wizard and then pulling off a Patronus just after he buys a wand from Diagon Alley.

Honestly it was more like me saying that "bad writing" is rather loaded, specifically for the charges often brought against the movie here and by fandom sorts for SW in general. The argument imo comes off as a no true Scotsman.

I think it's fair to lean into the wind here while telling you specifically that that's generally how the force operates. You seem to be constricted to considering that it only involves deliberate cognitive control by the agent, but that's not the case regarding the Skywalkers piloting or Obi-Wan's fighting resilience. Every instruction of the force involves letting it do it's thing with you as much as you telling it what to do.

So suddenly the fact that it made a woman accidentally do a mind control trick is supposed to be rubbish because it is the most unprecedented thing next to, maybe, immaculate conception?

Has nothing to do with Rey being a woman in the general sense. I would have same the argument if Rey was Ray instead.

Also an argument can definitely be made there is a difference in having the user subconsciously using the Force to amp their natural senses and reflexes. Versus subconsciously mind controlling someone which the last time I checked isn't part of a humans natural abilities.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Rey concentrates, stares directly at the stormtrooper, and slowly and purposefully says what she wants him to do, with deliberate emphasis.

If you didn't know how the Mind Trick works, and had only rumors and stories which were exaggerated into near-legends, and were greatly emotionally distressed by terror and apprehension, why would you do any of those things, especially if you didn't know you were Force-sensitive?

It's not so much a matter of time, as the possession of appropriate knowledge. No explanation is ever given for how Rey knows this - not that she was trained as a very young child and has forgotten, no Force ghosts giving her guidance, nothing. Zip, zilch, nada.

Because she's a Rey.

And we're back to square 1 with table top rpg rules.

There's no established rulebook on how the mindtrick works. Flying a spacecraft and firing torpedos guided by the force... we have 2 instances of that, and that's it for the all we know about "learning how to force."

Bad writing, you can call it that. It's not exciting, again, because anyone can call it "bad writing" for any reason. By terms of writing though, it's specifically not breaking rules as much as not showing what you want to see.

If not bad writing, then how do you explain how she goes from ''the Force was a legend that you just told me was real' to mind trick in six(?) hours?

That is Hagrid telling Harry that he is a wizard and then pulling off a Patronus just after he buys a wand from Diagon Alley.

Honestly it was more like me saying that "bad writing" is rather loaded, specifically for the charges often brought against the movie here and by fandom sorts for SW in general. The argument imo comes off as a no true Scotsman.

I think it's fair to lean into the wind here while telling you specifically that that's generally how the force operates. You seem to be constricted to considering that it only involves deliberate cognitive control by the agent, but that's not the case regarding the Skywalkers piloting or Obi-Wan's fighting resilience. Every instruction of the force involves letting it do it's thing with you as much as you telling it what to do.

So suddenly the fact that it made a woman accidentally do a mind control trick is supposed to be rubbish because it is the most unprecedented thing next to, maybe, immaculate conception?

Has nothing to do with Rey being a woman in the general sense. I would have same the argument if Rey was Ray instead.

I'm not sure what you're referring to. The fact that she's a woman doesn't have any bearing on the discourse.

[McAvoy]

Rey concentrates, stares directly at the stormtrooper, and slowly and purposefully says what she wants him to do, with deliberate emphasis.

If you didn't know how the Mind Trick works, and had only rumors and stories which were exaggerated into near-legends, and were greatly emotionally distressed by terror and apprehension, why would you do any of those things, especially if you didn't know you were Force-sensitive?

It's not so much a matter of time, as the possession of appropriate knowledge. No explanation is ever given for how Rey knows this - not that she was trained as a very young child and has forgotten, no Force ghosts giving her guidance, nothing. Zip, zilch, nada.

Because she's a Rey.

And we're back to square 1 with table top rpg rules.

There's no established rulebook on how the mindtrick works. Flying a spacecraft and firing torpedos guided by the force... we have 2 instances of that, and that's it for the all we know about "learning how to force."

Bad writing, you can call it that. It's not exciting, again, because anyone can call it "bad writing" for any reason. By terms of writing though, it's specifically not breaking rules as much as not showing what you want to see.

If not bad writing, then how do you explain how she goes from ''the Force was a legend that you just told me was real' to mind trick in six(?) hours?

That is Hagrid telling Harry that he is a wizard and then pulling off a Patronus just after he buys a wand from Diagon Alley.

Honestly it was more like me saying that "bad writing" is rather loaded, specifically for the charges often brought against the movie here and by fandom sorts for SW in general. The argument imo comes off as a no true Scotsman.

I think it's fair to lean into the wind here while telling you specifically that that's generally how the force operates. You seem to be constricted to considering that it only involves deliberate cognitive control by the agent, but that's not the case regarding the Skywalkers piloting or Obi-Wan's fighting resilience. Every instruction of the force involves letting it do it's thing with you as much as you telling it what to do.

So suddenly the fact that it made a woman accidentally do a mind control trick is supposed to be rubbish because it is the most unprecedented thing next to, maybe, immaculate conception?

Here I requoted you and made it bold.

Now this could be just a innocent descriptive word or this could be one many arguments that is used against fans who don't like Rey. As in I am rabid neckbeard basement dwelling manbaby toxic fan boy who doesn't like Rey because she is a woman.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

If you say so. It really didn't have anything to do with my line of reasoning. Except for maybe the fact that it's established in Episode 1 that the force acted very distinctly on a woman in the form of immaculate conception.

But yes, it was indeed an innocent descriptive word. Not that you insinuating the proceeding sentiment isn't completely judgmental in itself.

I'm not certain that "subconsciously using the force," is the same as "letting the force flow through one's self," as Obi Wan puts it. You're still stuck in deliberate usage of the force, and her account isn't a break in any rules as far as its unprecedentedness.

[McAvoy]

If you say so. It really didn't have anything to do with my line of reasoning. Except for maybe the fact that it's established in Episode 1 that the force acted very distinctly on a woman in the form of immaculate conception.

But yes, it was indeed an innocent descriptive word. Not that you insinuating the proceeding sentiment isn't completely judgmental in itself.

I'm not certain that "subconsciously using the force," is the same as "letting the force flow through one's self," as Obi Wan puts it. You're still stuck in deliberate usage of the force, and her account isn't a break in any rules as far as its unprecedentedness.

Obi Wan telling Luke to let the Force flow through him basically was about enhancing his senses. Rey subconsciously or not using the Force to use the mind trick is different. One is enhancing your already natural abilities that nearly all humans have, versus using an ability that not a single human has.

If it was just that, then it would excuseable, but Rey has been shown to be better at nearly all abilities than what we have seen in the previous movies in a short amount of time.

[Frustration]

"Bad" writing isn't a mere subjective judgment, although of course some elements of evaluation are subjective. There are agreed-upon principles that are accepted because following them provides things that people look for in narratives and are necessary for the structure of a story to function logically.

Rey being instantly skilled at everything she attempts violates those principles.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Everything including a fight against a wounded man filled with rage and arrogance, for one. And there was supposed to be a reason for her talents mind you. Abrams didn't exactly drop the ball that was the subversion game.

But again, no one arguing about mind tricks here knows anything official about how difficult they are except for anecdotal references based on observation. Plenty of people agree that we know nothing of Luke's training, and that he is a very obscure example for reference. And that's all we get in lieu of orthodox Jedi and with regard to mind tricks.

I agree about bad writing, mr. Frustration. Most anybody agrees that the trilogy on the whole kinda blows, and I personally believe that her arc was on rails. There's nothing, however, contradictory that I've seen anyone point to.

[McAvoy]

Everything including a fight against a wounded man filled with rage and arrogance, for one. And there was supposed to be a reason for her talents mind you. Abrams didn't exactly drop the ball that was the subversion game.

But again, no one arguing about mind tricks here knows anything official about how difficult they are except for anecdotal references based on observation. Plenty of people agree that we know nothing of Luke's training, and that he is a very obscure example for reference. And that's all we get in lieu of orthodox Jedi and with regard to mind tricks.

I agree about bad writing, mr. Frustration. Most anybody agrees that the trilogy on the whole kinda blows, and I personally believe that her arc was on rails. There's nothing, however, contradictory that I've seen anyone point to.

Luke barely had any training between New Hope and Empire. That is evident. He barely was able to force grab his lightsaber. He couldn't lift his own X Wing. We are not sure how long Luke trained with Yoda in Empire either, but it couldn't have been long. He would have been killed within minutes if Darth Vader wasn't toying with him.

Rey, could use the Jedi Mind Trick, have full control of the force grab to rival Ren. Ren who had years if not decades to learn to use the Force. She could lift rocks in the end, not one or two but dozens.

What she can do is entirely contradictory to what is established in the established Star Wars universe.