Star Wars Needs to Let the Dark Side Be More Interesting | Glass of Water - [Lily Orchard]

[clearspira]

Anakin: I've seen a vision in the Force. Someone I care about dies.

Kirk: LET THEM DIE.

And then Kirk is visibly shaken at his own words and then visibly pulls himself back. He knows that he is wrong. It's a moment of very human weakness.

And that's the Prequels biggest problem. These humans do not act like humans, they act like robots. Especially with this whole "Jedi cannot love" stuff. The only way you are getting a virgin teenage boy to not fall passionately in love/lust with 2000-era Natalie Portman is to castrate him.

[clearspira]

Anyway, as far as I am concerned, the Jedi were asking for Anakin to turn to the dark side the moment they refused to return for his mother. And we know that Waddo or whatever his name was was willing to sell her because he ended up doing just that. Did Anakin never once ask Obi Wan or Yoda about this or what? There really - and I mean really is - an element of "fuck her we got what we wanted" about this whole thing.

[Frustration]

Isn't that the exact opposite? He claims that the Force is about Balance and the Dark SIde is imbalance?

I.e there's no Light Side, just the Force and the Dark Side is what you get when you get imbalanced?

Are you sure you've seen the movies?

No, you are incorrect. He's closer to Manicheanism or Zoroastrian in his interpretation, which is what happens when you take a Taoist worldview and declare that there are clearly-defined sides and one of them is wrong.

[Frustration]

The only way you are getting a virgin teenage boy to not fall passionately in love/lust with 2000-era Natalie Portman is to castrate him.

2000-era Portman? Hell, today's Portman is just as hot, only now she's mature and experienced.

Also, castrating wouldn't help. He'd still fall desperately in love, he'd just become angry and vengeful that they can't consummate their relationship physically.

[Winter]

@Nealithi

You Quote.

Uh no. He asks "You or someone else."
Anakin: "Someone."
Yoda: "Someone close?"
Anakin: "Yes"
Yoda: "Fear of loss is a path to the darkside."
Anakin: "I won't let these visions come true."
Yoda: "Death is natural. Rejoice in one becoming one with the force.

The Actual Quote

Yoda: Premonitions . . . premonitions . . . Hmmmm . . . these visions you have . . .

Anakin: They are of pain, suffering, death. . .

Yoda: Yourself you speak of, or someone you know?

Anakin: Someone . . .

Yoda: . . . close to you?

Anakin: Yes.

Yoda: Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side.

Anakin: I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda.

Yoda: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.

Anakin: What must I do, Master Yoda?

Yoda: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

Let's focus on the words used from both characters.

Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side.

Yoda here can see that Anakin is already on a dark path and is telling him to be careful when sensing the Future and using what he said in Empire, Always in motion is the Future. Also, note the points Anakin focuses on when he talks about these visions.

They are of pain, suffering, death

Anakin is already letting his fear of losing Padme drive his judgement and I can relate to him here. I've lost people I love and the fear of losing them took me to some dark places that I would rather not get into here for obvious reasons and the thought that I could do something wasn't healthy. But let's get back to the little green man and what he says.

He makes a point the fear of lose is a path what is driving Anakin here. Again I get what he's going through but Anakin just goes straight to saying.

I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda.

We see here that Anakin has already made up his mind and is stating that he will make things go the way he feels they should be. It's clear that Anakin's emotions are what's driving him here and that he wants matters more then anything else. Thus we come to Yoda's response.

Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.

Yoda doesn't have any answers for Anakin's vision because (and I'll admit this is me just speculating here) Yoda may have sensed that the person Anakin fear losing would not survive. Let's go to the vision for a moment. Anakin sees Padme die in childbirth and based on what he sees it seems this death is certain, he has no power to keep her alive and there is no power the Jedi know of that can either heal the those from death.

What Anakin is asking for, is not something within the Jedi's power to grant and I think Yoda can sense that this is the case. I mean, if Anakin saw Padme dying in a cave while giving birth and she died because she wasn't in a hospital where she would have help then yeah, the Jedi would be jerks who just let people die. But one thing I like about Lucas' take on the Force and those who wield it, the Force gives Jedi and Sith powers that allow them to do amazing things that are otherwise impossible for regular people, but their not GODS. They make mistakes, they can be killed and they can't save everyone.

Let's imagine for a moment that Anakin told Yoda that it was Padme that was going to die in childbirth, what can he do? Palpatine offers false hope by implying that if he and Anakin work together they can find a way to save Padme from dying in childbirth but all he has to go on is an old story that may not even be true.

All Yoda can do is to warn Anakin to not let grief consume him, because as far as anyone knows, this is not something the Force can fix. Thus the final part of the conversation.

Anakin: What must I do, Master Yoda?

Yoda: Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

What Anakin wants is a miracle and that's beyond Yoda and the Jedi's powers. Again, they're not Gods, they can't just have Anakin bring in Padme and prevent her from dying. Palpatine offers a story about a Sith that could do this but that's all it is, a story. A magical tale that gives Anakin the idea that he could save his wife if he goes to the Sith but Palpatine has no answer and by following down this path, be refusing to let go of all he fears to lose, he insures that his wife will die... Because she just loses the will to live, okay that part is really silly.

So, to reiterate my point, Yoda is not saying "Let the person you love die" he is saying "Don't let your fear of losing the one you love consume you."

And again, that's all he can do. He can't stop people from dying, he can't give Anakin what he wants because (at this point in the series FU Rise of Skywalker) that's something that can be done. The Force is powerful, but it's not an all fix.

Part of Anakin's arc (and why I feel The Phantom Menace ISN'T worthless to the series) is Anakin seeing the Jedi as these great heroes but when he sees them as the flawed mortals they are he chooses to damn them and focus on only what matters to him.

I think you made a few minor mistakes in the argument. First about decisions. Is what did you know and when did you know it? Looking at history from well after events it is easy to see a what should have been done. I mostly get into this because of WW2 and my father is an amateur historian for it.
The reason I say this is the part where you claim Anakin asked for something no jedi's power can grant. Yoda never asks who or how. His only concern is poking Anakin about caring at all. Yoda does not know they cannot help. And the 'No Jedi' bit comes from Palpatine later. I have said quite often here. Oh yes did Palpatine manipulate Anakin. I do not even exonerate Anakin. Slaughtering a room full of children is very over the top on villainy. But I do hold Yoda and through him the Jedi accountable for claiming to be this bastion of good that dismisses pain, suffering, and death. For the lesson of learn to let go. It is natural and they will go to a better place. Because if dying sends you to the force and that is the glory you preach. Then the Jedi should think killing is the answer to everything. They have their own slippery slope to the darkside.

Oh and as pointed out by CharlesPhipps, this may have been a self fulfilling prophecy. But it was sure guided along by Yoda dismissing the problem. So here is my looking back observation. If Yoda pressed not on Anakin's feelings or even not just his feelings and got the vision from Anakin. Then he could very easily gone. "Put her in a hospital now we will. She will get the best care that can be given. But you must learn control of your emotions so they do not consume you." Then the prophecy chain would have been broken. Because the jedi would have been helping.
Because please check me on this. But hasn't Yoda been flippant about everyone's problems for two of the three prequel movies? No concern about visions of Anakin's mother dying. Obi Wan expresses some concern about what he is seeing. So Yoda brushes it off as all padawan's are like that. Just the previous movie you didn't like the idea of Obi Wan being the teacher. This is his first student right out of being a student himself! And when he asks for advice you think it is cute?
Sorry but as the most seen and heard of the jedi council Yoda ends up representing the jedi as a whole. And he is not coming off very well.

Can we agree to disagree?

[CharlesPhipps]

Isn't that the exact opposite? He claims that the Force is about Balance and the Dark SIde is imbalance?

I.e there's no Light Side, just the Force and the Dark Side is what you get when you get imbalanced?

Are you sure you've seen the movies?

No, you are incorrect. He's closer to Manicheanism or Zoroastrian in his interpretation, which is what happens when you take a Taoist worldview and declare that there are clearly-defined sides and one of them is wrong.

Um, the Dark Side is not actually Yin or Yang. It is imbalance.

The force is in balance because it is NOT the Dark Side.

Have YOU seen the movies?

https://www.farfarawaynews.com/2020/03/ ... rge-lucas/

George Lucas defines balance in the Force as "the removal of the toxicity of the dark side, a la the removal of toxins from blood. You return things to balance by eliminating whatever is causing them to go out of whack; thus, you keep the Force in balance by making the light side pure and free of the dark side."

[Frustration]

As I said, it's more like Zoroastrianism than Taoism.

I further note that the idea that forces can be 'purified' is very Yang - or Dark Side, since Lucas reversed the traditional associations. Yin is the tolerant, accepting aspect.

[CharlesPhipps]

As I said, it's more like Zoroastrianism than Taoism.

I further note that the idea that forces can be 'purified' is very Yang - or Dark Side, since Lucas reversed the traditional associations. Yin is the tolerant, accepting aspect.

I mean, it makes perfect sense if you don't think the Light Side/Dark Side corresponds to Yin and Yang.

Mind you, Lucas created the Living force as a contrast to the Dark Side but people ignore the Prequels new info.

Balance=No Dark Side because Dark Side=Imbalance.

[Frustration]

There are canonical Light Side and Dark Side mantras. The Light Side version isn't about balance any more than the Dark Side version is.

[Nealithi]

Can we agree to disagree?

I am not sure how to put the sounds coming from my throat.
There are points I agree. Palpatine sucked. No. . Not sucked. Manipulative to his own ends which had little to no semblance of good in them, maybe? I mean I can appreciate he was a manipulative bastard. But he was still quite evil.
Anakin let his obsessive need to do good lead him on the path to hell.

I think we agree on those things.


What we disagree on seems to be Yoda and the Jedi being supportive and caring.