The Aesthetics of Abramstrek

[Makeshift Python]

Then that's YOUR personal interpretation, YOUR opinion, and no, removing them at this point serves little past your "I don't like them" attitude.

The whole conceit of Romulans is that they're supposed to look like Vulcans, and giving them ridges betrays that. It bothered a lot of fans, including Ron Moore. Funnily, even though THE FINAL FRONTIER and THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY were released at the same time as TNG they retained their Vulcan resemblance. Thankfully J.J. Abrams got rid of the ridges, though I'm not all that big a fan of the tattoos added.

Given the huge backlash STD got over changing the Klingons' looks, do you really think we'll let that pass?

I doubt many would miss the ridges. In fact, I bet it would be more welcomed by fans just for restoring their resemblance to Vulcans. After all, nobody missed them in the 2009 film.

You bend over backwards to defend STD, so I'm telling you right now. You could probably defend the Romulan ridges the same way.

Not really. I have legitimate reasons for being against Romulan ridges.

Also, nice job pulling out the "nostalgia card." By that logic, you can't possibly be a TNG fan at all. Btw, I didn't even discover DS9 till 2009, and it's my favorite Trek series.

I like TNG, I just don't hold every creative decision as being sacred. Romulan ridges was one of the strangest additions that could easily be reversed. At least I don't condemn the show for changing their make up. For what its worth, I didn't see too much of DS9 until it premiered for reruns in 2004 on Spike TV. Before then I only had a videotape of "Emissary" and caught a few odd episodes in the 90s, mainly the final season. By the time I finally got to seeing the whole thing it became my favorite.

[Yukaphile]

The whole conceit of Romulans is that they're supposed to look like Vulcans, and giving them ridges betrays that. It bothered a lot of fans, including Ron Moore. Funnily, even though THE FINAL FRONTIER and THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY were released at the same time as TNG they retained their Vulcan resemblance. Thankfully J.J. Abrams got rid of the ridges, though I'm not all that big a fan of the tattoos added.

Actually, in Enterprise, Vulcans looked a lot like Romulans, so... there goes your theory. Besides, who knows how two millennia could have played with their biology? Vulcan emotions are so intense, they suppress them. Why isn't that the case with the Romulans? Could be that a lot of them interbred with the Remans or even Klingons to do that. I'm curious, did Moore hate the Klingon redesign? To bitch about the Romulan redesign while ignoring how badly the Klingons got it... isn't that a wee bit hypocritical? See, I hate redesigning an alien species, period. If I'd been alive in the late seventies, which was the point I was trying to make elsewhere that got wildly taken out of context, I'd have probably complained about the Klingon redesign. But since I wasn't, it's something I can accept a lot more easily since I have the quality of TOS and TNG ingrained into my mind. That, and it's what Roddenberry originally wanted, and I do wanna credit him this, he should have been able to get it if he'd had his way in the 1960s, but eh, budget.

I doubt many would miss the ridges. In fact, I bet it would be more welcomed by fans just for restoring their resemblance to Vulcans. After all, nobody missed them in the 2009 film.

People expect something a lot different from a movie than they do a TV show. IIRC, the Klingons' looks in STID weren't commented on either, even though they arguably paved the way. And given the general backlash STD has gotten over what you perceive as the smallest of infractions, again, do you really think people will let that pass? I'm curious if Mixed Drops would agree with you here. Given that was it you or he who said STD has gotten nothing but backlash. Besides, the ridges thing was a JOKE. A joke you used to criticize me, so... forgive me if I'm feeling a little bit slighted here.

Not really. I have legitimate reasons for being against Romulan ridges.

I can list all the stuff you defend that I think is stupid, but I'm not going to. But take my example up above? I defended the ridges with a perfectly reasonable explanation. And hell, who's to say that after centuries, that there's not something similar to what's going with the Klingons in STD? Those who were bred so thoroughly between Remans or Klingons or some kind of alien species that some have more pronounced ridges, some don't, and some lack them entirely? It's never stated, but nothing is said that disproves this either.

I like TNG, I just don't hold every creative decision as being sacred. Romulan ridges was one of the strangest additions that could easily be reversed. At least I don't condemn the show for changing their make up. For what its worth, I didn't see too much of DS9 until it premiered for reruns in 2004 on Spike TV. Before then I only had a videotape of "Emissary" and caught a few odd episodes in the 90s, mainly the final season. By the time I finally got to seeing the whole thing it became my favorite.

Neither do I, but to not include them even though they were a staple of TNG is just needlessly screwing with the looks, and since you accused me of being a nostalgia fanboy, what about all those real nostalgia fanboys who would get upset with that? You can't just dismiss them because you don't like their views. This is why I insist that the Picard series would get backlash if they changed that, and yet... you don't see that? How is that possible? It would be what happened with the Klingons all over again in people's minds!

[Makeshift Python]

There's a difference between being okay with the change in Klingon make up in TMP and not agreeing with the change in Romulan make-up. It's not hypocritical. Your attempt to make them equivalent to each other doesn't work. TOS and the movies presented Romulans resembling Vulcans, which is what the Berman productions should have reflected but for whatever reason Berman gave the approval to Westmore for redesigning the Romulans. If he had given Vulcans ridges, he'd at least be consistent in keeping them looking alike, even though the addition of ridges is still unnecessary.

[Yukaphile]

I was talking about the recent redesign, in STID and STD. And again, you're not disputing any of my points, which is something you guys got after me about. The potential for interbreeding over two thousand years, or perhaps some kind of radiation fallout? Or just eating different food? Species can evolve over time, you know, and if we settled other planets, we'd evolve differently. Granted, this is two millennia, not two eons, but still, you get the point. Or what I brought up on the reasons why it would get backlash similar to the Klingons in 2016? I don't think the Romulan redesign is that unreasonable past "it irks you," which I can respect, believe it or not. But now the other shoe has dropped and you're the one who has to defend why he's entitled to his opinions. Point being, I think you're right to feel this way, but at the same time, I'm right to feel the way I do about STD. I think they're unnecessary changes to the canon. So, maybe you could kindly try and refute the arguments I brought up?

[Makeshift Python]

What's to refute? They're your head canon. I rather Trek just move on and not need to explain why Berman productions had Romulans with ridges. It was bad enough ENTERPRISE wasted its time explaining Klingons not having ridges in TOS.

[Yukaphile]

Oh no. You literally cannot dismiss me so easily as claiming it's "my headcanon." It's a part of the lore, and no explanation was given like with the Klingons, so you gotta come up with an explanation. I gave explanations, that aren't stated within text, but there's nothing to suggest they're so far removed from the realm of possibility that they aren't true, and every indication it's within the realm of likelihood. Because I could pull the same card on you. You guys feel I'm being stupid towards STD, but don't pretend as if there's not a strain of dismissal in your attitude towards me that isn't unwarranted, which, I know, a lot of it I've brought on myself, because I can admit to being unreasonable at times, but in this instance? I don't think so.

[Makeshift Python]

Thing is I really don't give that much thought to why Romulans have ridges beyond the fact that Westmore decided they should because he thought without themthey looked like elves or something, and that they should look angrier which is why he gave them V ridges. There was never any canon explanation thought up, and I'm happier to just ignore them, especially since no character ever actually acknowledges the presence of ridges. Go back and watch every episode, no character ever mentions them. It's rather peculiar. And like I said above, I prefer the TOS interpretation that they look like Vulcans.

Klingons redesigns are easier for me to handwave because there was already different variations of Klingon ridges depending on who the make up artist was. Fred Phillips simply gave them a uniform alien design with a simple ridge that resembled a spine. Then THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK debuted the idea that each Klingon has a different set of ridges like thumb prints. Then Westmore for TNG used Dinosaur vertebrae as the basis for his Klingon ridges and have jagged teeth. Bryan Fuller then requests another redesign with the radical change being they're all bald, until the second season production decided to back away from that in favor of more traditional looking Klingons.

[Yukaphile]

Well, this is my point. I'm a hardcore nerd and I love a tight continuity and nitpicking over this. Not just in Trek, but in stuff like, say, anime. And that's why I can say Dragon Ball Super is inferior to Dragon Ball Z. The retcons, the asspulls, and the changes they make to the mythos are just... wrong. Not the new legitimate world-building like expanding on the god hierarchy, with Beerus and Whis, and the Grand Priest, and Zeno-sama. No, stuff like insisting Gogeta and Vegito equal to the same kind of fusion even though it was stated in Z that Potara fusion is superior to the dance. Or Trunks just grabbing a pseudo-god form out of his ass. Or Roshi somehow being able to use an imperfect Ultra Instinct. Or Goku's mischaracterization. I could go on and on. It's just a mess. I love a tight continuity, because then it leaves you to approach stuff like the characters, their interactions, and the story and plot more freely. But those get in the way in DBS.

[Admiral X]

Until NEM came along and messed things up for me, I theorized that the change in appearance had to do with the ancient Romulans interbreeding with the native population(s) of the planets they came to call Romulus and Remus after they settled there. And since the helmets the various background characters wore would have concealed the TNG-style ridges, I theorized that they'd had them all along, but at the time of the TOS episodes, the ones with ridges were considered second-class citizens and the smooth-headed ones were like aristocratic blue-bloods. Kind of works with the Roman theme since the Romans had the patrician and plebeian classes. And then by the time of TNG, there had been a power struggle of some kind that eliminated this class divide and either the smooth-headed Romulans were all killed, or got cosmetic surgery so they could blend in.

[Yukaphile]

Same way Gorkon's daughter was allowed to become Chancellor, and then a few decades later, there's a large "no girls allowed" sign hanging over the Council Chambers? I could buy that.