Darth Wedgius wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:22 pm
What's authoritarian about that? For a long while, only land owners had the vote, and that wasn't authoritarian, IMHO at least.
Those systems were set up to benefit those who were wealthy. See Victorian Poverty.
Which isn't the same thing as being authoritarian.
In Starship Troopers, there can still be a large amount of individual liberty for anyone, and in anyone can serve the state for a bit to get the vote. I didn't see restrictions on free speech or political "re-education" going on in that book.
We don't see much of how this society works.
Zor
So we don't see those things that would indicate an authoritarian society.
Madner Kami wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:10 pm
There's evidence that the Chinese acted in self-defense. YMMV, but at least two entities were blamed for pulling the trigger. One either being Vault-Tec, the other being a military super-computer.
Darth Wedgius wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:22 pm
What's authoritarian about that? For a long while, only land owners had the vote, and that wasn't authoritarian, IMHO at least.
Those systems were set up to benefit those who were wealthy. See Victorian Poverty.
Which isn't the same thing as being authoritarian.
It's also worth mentioning that the voting system (at least in the United States) was deeply flawed since it excluded the poor, women, indigenous peoples, and slaves. It is also worth mentioning that in parts of the country like the deep south the land owners (specifically plantation owners) used their power over the local economy to actively oppress the African American population and limit the economic opportunities of the average southern farmer. Basically, the South was run by an Aristocracy that relied on authoritarian methods to maintain their wealth and power while actively paying lip service to the idea that "All men are created equal".
As a side note; most states chose to give up allowing only land owners to vote with the first state being New Hampshire in 1792 with voting rights not really being guaranteed unless laws were specifically passed to ensure participation in the system.
Sources include: https://courses.lumenlearning.com/ushis ... the-south/ https://www.lawcha.org/2017/07/17/poor- ... ave-south/ https://www.ivotecef.org/timeline
Sorry.
Darth Wedgius wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:51 pmNone of which makes execution useless. You might be able to get organ donor material that way, too.
There are things in place which do it's job better, and you can grow organs under medium.
The political set up of Starship Troopers could go one of two ways...
Well: Enfranchisement gradually is extended and eventually Service Guaranties Citizenship dies away for universal suffrage. The Result is a Democratic state.
Badly: Enfranchisement is selectively limited. The groups in power devise ways to game the system to filter out those individuals that they don't like and deny them power to solidify their power base. Voting is restricted to those which support the status quo. The Result is a non hereditary autocracy.
Fallout is a critique on a lot of things, one of those is the subversion of a nation's ideals by those in control's special interests. The best game in the series, Fallout New Vegas, is a huge examination of the different types of government, and the political trains of thoughts behind them. One of the things that I really love about Fallout New Vegas is that we get to explore the differences of how people rebuild a society, their reasons and methods, and to what end. Each culture gets a viewpoint philosophy, which we're able to discuss with the characters, and can critique, analyze, and disagree with.
Let's look at each government, their spokesman, and philosophy:
The New California Republic, claiming most of California, Sonora, and now moving into Nevada, is an expansionist democratic-republic, modeled after the US. They don't really have a central figurehead, but that's the point, they're a hodgepodge of different viewpoints, but they demonstrate a lot of different reasons why the NCR both works, and the shortcomings of a represenative democracy following the US model. This makes them difficult to round up and control, making them sluggish and bloated. As well as open to corruption due to their various methods of doing things, but also gives them strength in their multitudes and openness towards others. The NCR has a huge problem with it's cattle barons, essentially their big business, having a bit too much sway in what happens in domestic and foreign NCR politics. But at the same time, there's a lot of good done by the NCR, with equality, freedom, liberty, education, etc. being part of their world due to the NCR making society.
Caesar, a man who has conquered most of New Mexico and Arizona, and working his way into Nevada, plans on making Vegas his capital. He focuses on conquering everyone in his way, and forcing all to join his culture or die. Caesar is very much a Hegelian Dialectic, viewing his rampaging army is an ideal contrast for the Representative Republic of the NCR. Viewing that the world needed a contrast to elected government with an autocracy, hoping to achieve synthesis via conquering. His failing is that he doesn't allow synthesis, as he breaks apart any opposition through destruction and assimilation, thus preventing any true synthesis. His methods also rely a lot on Popularity of personality, and the Legion is expected to break up into in-fighting once he dies, whether from his brain tumor, violence, or old age.
Talking to him about why he modeled the Legion after Rome is just a treat to listen to:
In the middle is Mr. House, a CEO from before the war, in control of a small robot army and a thriving gambling economy among the ruins of civilization by hiring locals. He believes in small government and pro-big business, using business and economics to get his way with both approaching empires.
Philosophically, Mr. House is an examination of Libertarianism and the focus on Big Business at the expense of government. He rebuilds a functioning society, New Vegas. When asked about the NCR and trying to build a democratic government, as opposed to his corporate New Vegas:
"If you want to see the fate of democracies, look out the windows."
House is rather scientific and Objective, thinking in almost Objectivist terms. This leads to the problem of Objectivists, that they don't consider the viewpoints of others valid, and always think they're right, to the point of folly, and leaving them open for other people to take advantage of, as Benny did.
With that, we get speeches from the relevant leaders of each, and it's up to the player who you side with, and you judge how the future of New Vegas goes.
This leaves you open to side with which choice you think best represents yourself philosophically.
Personally, I was all for the Followers of the Apocalypse, as they both preserved knowledge, and used that knowledge to teach both themselves and others. Things like learning old medicines, chemistry, science, engineering, art, history, linguistics, etc, and applying them to benefiting others. Because of this, I chose the option that benefited their faction the most. Which logically was the NCR, as they're effectively a non-profit, and having a strong beneficial government in the area to take care of a lot of the nitty gritty enables them to not be overburdened by taking care of everyone in a small government world such as in the Wild Card ending, run out of town by House due to his vested interest in a monopoly, and living on the Razor's edge of tolerance due to Caesar's fondness because he was a former member, which is the only reason they would survive at all, due to his belief in only the strong surviving.
FaxModem1 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:30 pm
The best game in the series, Fallout New Vegas, is a huge examination of the different types of government, and the political trains of thoughts behind them.
Does this include entire Fallout series or just once starting from FO3 and Bethesda era? I ask that because lot of times people forget that there is reason why FO3 has that 3 in it's name. Sorry if this is off topic.
"In the embrace of the great Nurgle, I am no longer afraid, for with His pestilential favour I have become that which I once most feared: Death.."
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FaxModem1 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:30 pm
The best game in the series, Fallout New Vegas, is a huge examination of the different types of government, and the political trains of thoughts behind them.
Does this include entire Fallout series or just once starting from FO3 and Bethesda era? I ask that because lot of times people forget that there is reason why FO3 has that 3 in it's name. Sorry if this is off topic.
Fallout 1 really only had the Master as a talking point, and multiple Raiders to deal with. There really wasn't a lot of philosophy in the game. Fallout 2 definitely gave us more meat to chew on, with the introduction of the Enclave, the NCR, Vault City, etc., but I find New Vegas explores the themes better, as even New Vegas, with it's cost of getting in versus Vault City's citizenship requirements more interesting, due to the the exploration of Freeside and it works better at showing why Mr. House's New Vegas only benefits a few, and the rest are either left to rot, or are actively harmed by the casino economy.
2 works because it gave us all those Fallout elements, but I like New Vegas more because it gave us a bigger exploration of those elements. While we were introduced to the Followers of the Apocalypse and the NCR, we truly see who they are decades later when they've had time to grow.
Darth Wedgius wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:51 pmNone of which makes execution useless. You might be able to get organ donor material that way, too.
There are things in place which do it's job better, and you can grow organs under medium.
The political set up of Starship Troopers could go one of two ways...
Well: Enfranchisement gradually is extended and eventually Service Guaranties Citizenship dies away for universal suffrage. The Result is a Democratic state.
Badly: Enfranchisement is selectively limited. The groups in power devise ways to game the system to filter out those individuals that they don't like and deny them power to solidify their power base. Voting is restricted to those which support the status quo. The Result is a non hereditary autocracy.
Zor
Or it continues as is, with unknown civil liberties.
And as to growing organs in a medium, could you provide a reference to that? I only know of growing tissues in a medium.
And that there might be better ways to reduce recidivism does not make execution useless. That guy they're pulling out of the chair? The guy who just found out what it's like to be a light bulb filament? Zero recidivism, barring a hunger for brains.
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Darth Wedgius wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:17 pm
Or it continues as is, with unknown civil liberties.
As it stands the system is remarkably easy to game. It's already designed to engage in filtration and to bar those deemed "unworthy" of franchise from participation in politics. The only way to prevent this system from being gamed for the benefit of a small ruling elit is to expand franchise.
And as to growing organs in a medium, could you provide a reference to that? I only know of growing tissues in a medium.
There are better and far more ethical ways of getting replacement organs even if you can't grow them under medium.
And that there might be better ways to reduce recidivism does not make execution useless. That guy they're pulling out of the chair? The guy who just found out what it's like to be a light bulb filament? Zero recidivism, barring a hunger for brains.
Unless you are willing to expand the Death Penalty's applications massively that's not going to be an issue and it comes at a massive human cost.
