Force Awakens editor making waves

[Dargaron]

All of those are simple to understand without any supplemental material.

1. It's clear that Phasma isn't stupid so it makes sense to assume that she was able to wipe traces of her involment and escape.

So why should we accept her death in TLJ?

2. All we need to know based on what we see is that Knights of Ren are group of dark side users.

Do we? Does their motivation really not matter? They're just a plot device, that could be replaced with any other combat encounter? Remember, Kylo Ren is explicitly called out as master of the Knights of Ren in The Force Awakens. Kylo vs. the Knights of Ren is a commanding officer being forced to kill men and women who until recently were his responsibility. This should have been a powerful moment, perhaps only slightly less meaningful than Kylo killing his father. Yet none of that comes through in the movie: they are simply goons of Palpatine to be slaughtered on the way to the Throne Room.

3. We know that Palpatine has plans within plans so him surviving isn't big deal.

So why should we accept the ending of TROS as a legitimate end to Palpatine, the way the movie clearly wants us to? What's to stop the next movie from featuring Palpatine returned yet again, this time at the head of the "Penultimate Order"?

4. Palpatine's speech since everyone had thought that he was dead.

A speech we weren't graced with in the cinematic universe: that privilege was reserved for Fortnite players.

5. Through The Force.

So Luke and Leia can sense it, but Snoke cannot?

6. To keep her as far away from her grandfather's reach as possible.

So rather than sending their daughter to the man who killed Palpatine last time (and is the most likely to believe them that Palpatine is back), they elect to sell her into slavery? Even Obi-wan wasn't that harsh.

7. Possibly contradicting orders.

"Possibly."
You're grasping at straws. Snoke is clearly able to communicate/perceive events happening light-years away (see his treatment of General Hux in TLJ), and Palpatine is (presumably) yet more powerful than Snoke. Even if Snoke does have some measure of independence, you just admitted that Luke and Leia should've been able to tell Rey was a Palpatine "through the Force." So Snoke being unable to sense the same, and being unaware that Palpatine wants her alive, is dubious at best. And that's going against what the film implies when Palpatine says "I have been every voice you've ever heard" in Snoke's voice.

8. This one doesn't matter but it was most likely "I love you".

Does it not matter? Because the movie spends a significant amount of screentime to this running gag. Moreso than such trivialities as "Where did Palpatine's big fleet come from?" "What is a Force Diad and what can it do?" and "Why was Finn totally unable to just shoot Kylo during the whole Force tug-of-war scene?" Seriously, the camera cuts from Kylo and Rey to Finn, who had a blaster on his belt, as he just sort of stands there watching them.

I got all those just by watching movies and paying attention. Oh and I had no doubt when watching TLJ that those guys in red armor protecting Snoke were his version of Royal Guards instead of Knights of Ren. We even learned what they are called trough them having toys.

Who's to say that the Knights of Ren weren't the name of Snoke's Royal Guard equivalent? We had seen neither hide nor hair of them, but Snoke's guards had clear iconographical similarities to Kylo in their equipment, and since there hadn't been any other elite group of warriors mentioned in the First Order's service, it was a reasonable extrapolation. It would even have been fitting, given Kylo's "Kill the Past" speech, for him to have wiped out whatever order he belonged to (in this case, the Knights of Ren) as part of his wiping the slate clean.

I think that's the difference in our viewing methods. I watch a film in order to actively engage with the work. Does X scene make sense with everything else surrounding it? How many assumptions is the writer/director asking me to just swallow and accept for his narrative to work? And especially when a work is part of a long-running series, it's incumbent on the "author" to ensure that what they're adding to the work fits in with what came before.

Otherwise, why make a new Star Wars movie, instead of an original IP inspired by Star Wars? Maybe call it "the Mass plus Acceleration Chronicles"? I am going to hold anything with the "Star Wars" logo slapped on it to a higher standard than I would a new, up-and-coming Sci-fi property, because that's the price that comes with the name recognition and the "star power" (no pun intended). That's why I give Pacific Rim a great deal more slack than I do the Star Trek Reboot, and why I think the Star Trek Reboot really would have been better suited as a standalone J.J. project rather than trying to tie back to Star Trek. Then it could've been judged on its own merits, and on those merits, it's...passable. But instead, they tied the Star Trek name onto the work, which means I am now going to judge it accordingly, which includes standards like "does this fit with previous entries in the series, thematically and aesthetically?"

[Winter]

All of those are simple to understand without any supplemental material.

1. It's clear that Phasma isn't stupid so it makes sense to assume that she was able to wipe traces of her involment and escape.

Fair enough but she still comes right out of nowhere and the last time we saw her was Han asking if there was a trash-compactor they could throw her in and there's nothing in TLJ that tells us how she alive or how she avoided getting into trouble.

2. All we need to know based on what we see is that Knights of Ren are group of dark side users.

Actually we don't as there's nothing in either Awakens or ROS that suggests that they are Force Users or now. All we know is there name and nothing else and the film made a big deal out of them given that Kylo is their leader.

3. We know that Palpatine has plans within plans so him surviving isn't big deal.

Yes it IS a Big Deal as killing him was Anakin's Redemption and Palpatine FELL DOWN A THOUSAND MILE REALTOR AND BLEW UP! AND THEN THE STATION HE WAS ON BLEW UP!!! You don't just Survive something like THAT and not give an explanation. It not only undermines Anakin's Sacrifice but it's just bad writing. Palpatine was dead only now he's not and the only "Explanation" we get basically boils down to A Wizard Did It. Even Maul's survival was given an explanation with him stating that he used his hatred and his training from Palpatine to keep himself alive and even then he still needed the Leader of the Nightsisters to fully heal him.

4. Palpatine's speech since everyone had thought that he was dead.

Said speech ISN'T in the film which was the point of the question.

5. Through The Force.

That's not how the Force Works. Even Vader needed to confirm that Luke was his son by seeing his name and investigating on his own for years before he knew for certain and he was standing right next to his daughter and didn't know until after his DEATH.

6. To keep her as far away from her grandfather's reach as possible.

So they dump her on a planet where she had next to no chance of survival with someone who cared so little about her that he used her for slave labor? There's so much wrong with this "Plan" on both a moral and just plain logical level that I honestly don't even know where to begin.

7. Possibly contradicting orders.

ROS implies that Snoke was completely under Palpatine's control and yet Palpatine states that he never wanted Rey dead but wanted her to take his throne only to then reveal that he wants to possess her. But then why tell Kylo to kill Rey? Sure, Kylo never wanted to kill Rey but then why not just TELL Kylo to capture Rey since that's what he wanted to do in the first place? And that's just the tip of the ice berg of questions in regards to Palpatine's "Plan".

8. This one doesn't matter but it was most likely "I love you".

They guy who killed Han and Luke, beat Finn so badly that he ended up in a coma and tried to Mind Rape her, kill her when she refused to join him and spent most of ROS harassing her? Who kept gaslighting her and trying to intimate her into joining him and threatened everyone she cares about at every opportunity? That Guy is the one she's in love with? Where did those feelings of love come from cause it sure as Hell wasn't because he was nice to her.

More power to you for enjoying these films but I've been paying attention to and given the rules established by the lore of this world most of this doesn't make any sense to me and I KNOW I'm not alone in this as one of the biggest critics of ROS was that it was almost impossible to understand and even the people who've worked on it have criticized that it makes no sense with or without supplementary material.

[Dargaron]

3. We know that Palpatine has plans within plans so him surviving isn't big deal.

Yes it IS a Big Deal as killing him was Anakin's Redemption and Palpatine FELL DOWN A THOUSAND MILE REALTOR AND BLEW UP! AND THEN THE STATION HE WAS ON BLEW UP!!! You don't just Survive something like THAT and not give an explanation. It not only undermines Anakin's Sacrifice but it's just bad writing. Palpatine was dead only now he's not and the only "Explanation" we get basically boils down to A Wizard Did It. Even Maul's survival was given an explanation with him stating that he used his hatred and his training from Palpatine to keep himself alive and even then he still needed the Leader of the Nightsisters to fully heal him.

Thank you for mentioning the Anakin angle: the scene where Kylo confronts Palpatine at the beginning of TROS even includes this little gem: "End the Jedi, and become what your grandfather Vader could not." So whoever was writing the script was already making explicit callbacks to Vader's "redemption" moment (whether it's deserved is another question), without a consideration for how Palpatine's resurrection renders the whole thing much less powerful in retrospect.

That said, Maul probably isn't the best example: I'd consider resurrecting Maul to be almost as bad as resurrecting Palpatine. And yes, I know that the Legends EU also brought back Palpatine, and that it was also a bad idea back then. The difference being, the sequel trilogy had the benefit of hindsight. They could look back and see how unpopular/divisive Empire Reborn was, and exactly why that was the case, namely, bringing back Palpatine in such a manner and devaluing Anakin/Vader's sacrifice.

EDIT:

8. This one doesn't matter but it was most likely "I love you".

They guy who killed Han and Luke, beat Finn so badly that he ended up in a coma and tried to Mind Rape her, kill her when she refused to join him and spent most of ROS harassing her? Who kept gaslighting her and trying to intimate her into joining him and threatened everyone she cares about at every opportunity? That Guy is the one she's in love with? Where did those feelings of love come from cause it sure as Hell wasn't because he was nice to her.

You're misreading Mecha. The quote in question is talking about Finn, not Kylo. Finn would periodically pipe up and say that he had something he needed to tell Rey (usually when the two of them were in some imminent danger), and then immediately refuse to tell her once they were back in safety.

ROS implies that Snoke was completely under Palpatine's control and yet Palpatine states that he never wanted Rey dead but wanted her to take his throne only to then reveal that he wants to possess her. But then why tell Kylo to kill Rey? Sure, Kylo never wanted to kill Rey but then why not just TELL Kylo to capture Rey since that's what he wanted to do in the first place? And that's just the tip of the ice berg of questions in regards to Palpatine's "Plan".

I'm not sure I agree with you about Palpatine telling Kylo to kill Rey instead of capture her. Unlike Snoke, Kylo was a fairly unreliable agent (he had literally just demonstrated his willingness to kill his master for his own personal gain), so it would be in character for Palpatine to intentionally give Kylo an incomplete mission. I did make that connection while watching the film, and I'm fairly sure it's intentional on the author's part.

Basically, if Palpatine had told Kylo that he needed Rey alive, that gives Kylo some degree of leverage over him, and he might just try to threaten Rey in order to betray Palpatine, the same way he tried/succeeded in betraying Snoke. Better to lie to Kylo and possibly intervene if it turns out Kylo does actually get close to killing Rey.

(Or his plan was to pit Kylo against Rey, and then possess whichever one of them won and came back to kill him. IIRC, the movie never clearly states whether Palpatine can only possess family members, force users, or just anyone who passes by. But pitting the two against each other and exploiting whichever one came out on top is a very Sith thing to do.)

[Winter]

That said, Maul probably isn't the best example: I'd consider resurrecting Maul to be almost as bad as resurrecting Palpatine.

Honestly I do too, and I also didn't like how Maul was written as he was waaay to talky and lacked a lot of what I liked about him in the first film and he really wasn't needed. But I do think it was better handled and it helps that, while I don't like the idea and how Maul was written, the episodes he was in ARE, IMMHO, some of the best episodes in the series.

By contrast, ROS is being seen as the weakest of the Star Wars films which is pretty bad when you consider that it's suppose to be the grand finally of the series. I do hope that everyone who worked on said films go on to have great success later but this was a rather weak story IMO.

EDIT:

8. This one doesn't matter but it was most likely "I love you".

They guy who killed Han and Luke, beat Finn so badly that he ended up in a coma and tried to Mind Rape her, kill her when she refused to join him and spent most of ROS harassing her? Who kept gaslighting her and trying to intimate her into joining him and threatened everyone she cares about at every opportunity? That Guy is the one she's in love with? Where did those feelings of love come from cause it sure as Hell wasn't because he was nice to her.

You're misreading Mecha. The quote in question is talking about Finn, not Kylo. Finn would periodically pipe up and say that he had something he needed to tell Rey (usually when the two of them were in some imminent danger), and then immediately refuse to tell her once they were back in safety.

Oh yeah, it is, my bad.

[Captain Crimson]

Realistically, Disney had a choice:

1. Keep the EU and try to explain the multiple galaxy-shaking arcs to movie fans who are completely ignorant of that content while trying to tell a new story. Chewie’s dead, Han and Leia’s daughter killed her twin brother after he went Sith… all of that.

2. Jettison the EU and come up with something new, while reserving the right to reintroduce Legends elements into the new canon.

3. Try to split the difference by either telling a story so insignificant that it had no effect on The Team’s EU stories, or excluding The Team entirely. Like, say, a trilogy set during the New Jedi Order conflict with the Yuuzhan Vong.

There’s no contest. Jettisoning the EU from canon was the only realistic option.

Jettisoning the EU is a flimsy argument given the extent to which they have lifted from it. I won't go over it again, but it is the truth. And if you are going that route, then why not continue stories set in that universe? Seriously. I think if they'd just adapted the EU from the point it left off, it would have filled in the gaps and provided a valuable background context for the new movies. That was never going to happen, but if corporate reality didn't limit them, it would've done a far better job. Imagine Jaina Solo set to step up and take charge of the New Jedi Order as Luke and the older heroes retire? It would have given Mr. Hamill that one last reunion he dreamed of, and any complaints Rey is a Mary Sue would be nonexistent. The argument I see is that building off so much lore would have confused the casuals. Would it, really? SW became a massive hit in 1977 and it picked mid-story. I think if the new movies building off the EU had done the same, it would play more true to Mr. Lucas's vision.

And before someone brings him up as a counterargument, which you very easily could do, admittedly, I am going to say that he also said he had no intention to work on the sequels, and directed people to check out the novels. I know he has many contradictory statements, but I thought it was important to note that. Anything you say about him, he has a statement out there which goes against your claim. If they were going to ignore Mr. Lucas's story treatments, anyway, which I felt were an interesting take, then to jettison the EU while taking what little they understand from it in a haphazard way is clumsy storytelling, and it's where I think the most fan criticism comes from.

[Mecha82]

You give Mr. Lucas too much credit and treat him and his work perfect. Just look bad choices that he made with PT and you see that he is far from that image that you have about him. Conbsidering that being in TPM ruined Jake Lloyd's life thanks to Mr. Lucas being unable to direct actual people making it impossible task for unexperienced child when it was also difficult for experienced actor like Liam Neeson. So really you are just cherry picking in order to validate your own views.

I remember when PT come out and there was similar out of line reactions to it as there has been for ST. So in other words it has only that it has only gotten far worse from those days with social media giving even better platform for toxic fandom.

[Captain Crimson]

You give Mr. Lucas too much credit and treat him and his work perfect. Just look bad choices that he made with PT and you see that he is far from that image that you have about him. Conbsidering that being in TPM ruined Jake Lloyd's life thanks to Mr. Lucas being unable to direct actual people making it impossible task for unexperienced child when it was also difficult for experienced actor like Liam Neeson. So really you are just cherry picking in order to validate your own views.

I remember when PT come out and there was similar out of line reactions to it as there has been for ST. So in other words it has only that it has only gotten far worse from those days with social media giving even better platform for toxic fandom.

Who, me? Frankly, I find the prequels rather so-so. I love the FX, I love the battle sequences, and the ship combat, but not much more past that. I think SWIII gave the best performances, but I prefer the novels. And, I am not sure if you are aware what I actually think of him? I mean, he is hardly perfect, of course, what person is, and from his contradictory accounts, you really don't know what to believe. He's also subject to the same biases that we all are. In the end, however, I respect his vision. I've said elsewhere I think the EU expands off the six films much like the SG TV shows do, and it was definitely tailored to that vision, despite propaganda myths that might claim otherwise. And the top dogs now are not honoring that legacy.

There was, definitely, fan criticisms. Some fan groups today like to wash their hands of it, and act as if the fandom is all right, that back then it was only the media doing the damages. I can't agree with that view at all. I can say, however, I think ultimately that the ST is watered down and it will hold up far better among casuals that pop out a watch every three to four years, but past that, when you get into hardcore geek circles I can't say that. And that, furthermore, I believe any deeper understanding you have for the old continuity, the less appreciation you have for the new material. I see it as their attempts to make it accessible to casuals and children, but that is just my opinion. And a reboot and remaking older content is the go-to for corporate laziness. It's why I watch much for the same reason I'll return to the PT so often. You just gotta roll with it. But the PT is done, while the ST just ended. It's technically "the new hotness." For now.

Here's an example to that. Do I like Baby Yoda Species? Yes. I geeked out over it with TM. It was definitely cute, and not in a retch kinda way, mind you, in a Puss N Boots way. And... do I still have issues with it? Sure. Just roll with it. And keep criticizing so you don't fall into intellectual sloth.

Toxic fans, especially in a passion project where everyone has an opinion and a huge number of people know about it, is a problem. I get that. And I certainly don't allow them to go on without any comment. I see someone bullying an actor, I'll call them out. Whether that is Jake Lloyd or Ms. Tran. And yeah, the underbelly of the SW fandom is certainly an ugly thing. But at the end of the day, that is one part of the story. I don't get why you bash the fandom so often and seem to give a pass to the top brass? Do they deserve they hate they get? No. I'd say not. Is there valid criticism? Definitely. And have they encouraged it? I say yes, barring exceptions. As I also said, I'm not a member of the fandom menace nor would I ever want to. I tend to avoid places like YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook for the most part, so I don't see those edges of fandom. Maybe you just hang around in different circles. If so, I apologize for any bad experiences you've had.

[Mecha82]

You give Mr. Lucas too much credit and treat him and his work perfect. Just look bad choices that he made with PT and you see that he is far from that image that you have about him. Conbsidering that being in TPM ruined Jake Lloyd's life thanks to Mr. Lucas being unable to direct actual people making it impossible task for unexperienced child when it was also difficult for experienced actor like Liam Neeson. So really you are just cherry picking in order to validate your own views.

I remember when PT come out and there was similar out of line reactions to it as there has been for ST. So in other words it has only that it has only gotten far worse from those days with social media giving even better platform for toxic fandom.

Who, me? Frankly, I find the prequels rather so-so. I love the FX, I love the battle sequences, and the ship combat, but not much more past that. I think SWIII gave the best performances, but I prefer the novels. And, I am not sure if you are aware what I actually think of him? I mean, he is hardly perfect, of course, what person is, and from his contradictory accounts, you really don't know what to believe. He's also subject to the same biases that we all are. In the end, however, I respect his vision. I've said elsewhere I think the EU expands off the six films much like the SG TV shows do, and it was definitely tailored to that vision, despite propaganda myths that might claim otherwise. And the top dogs now are not honoring that legacy.

There was, definitely, fan criticisms. Some fan groups today like to wash their hands of it, and act as if the fandom is all right, that back then it was only the media doing the damages. I can't agree with that view at all. I can say, however, I think ultimately that the ST is watered down and it will hold up far better among casuals that pop out a watch every three to four years, but past that, when you get into hardcore geek circles I can't say that. And that, furthermore, I believe any deeper understanding you have for the old continuity, the less appreciation you have for the new material. I see it as their attempts to make it accessible to casuals and children, but that is just my opinion. And a reboot and remaking older content is the go-to for corporate laziness. It's why I watch much for the same reason I'll return to the PT so often. You just gotta roll with it. But the PT is done, while the ST just ended. It's technically "the new hotness." For now.

Here's an example to that. Do I like Baby Yoda Species? Yes. I geeked out over it with TM. It was definitely cute, and not in a retch kinda way, mind you, in a Puss N Boots way. And... do I still have issues with it? Sure. Just roll with it. And keep criticizing so you don't fall into intellectual sloth.

Toxic fans, especially in a passion project where everyone has an opinion and a huge number of people know about it, is a problem. I get that. And I certainly don't allow them to go on without any comment. I see someone bullying an actor, I'll call them out. Whether that is Jake Lloyd or Ms. Tran. And yeah, the underbelly of the SW fandom is certainly an ugly thing. But at the end of the day, that is one part of the story. I don't get why you bash the fandom so often and seem to give a pass to the top brass? Do they deserve they hate they get? No. I'd say not. Is there valid criticism? Definitely. And have they encouraged it? I say yes, barring exceptions. As I also said, I'm not a member of the fandom menace nor would I ever want to. I tend to avoid places like YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook for the most part, so I don't see those edges of fandom. Maybe you just hang around in different circles. If so, I apologize for any bad experiences you've had.

I can understnd why it might seem like I am giving top brass free pass because of how much toxic fanbase irks me and how much I tend to attack them instead of top brass. I guess it's just that my stance towards what top brass is doing is very neutral. Granted I haven't been keeping it secret that I do enjoy lot of things that LF has put out. Only things so far that I haven't liked is Solo that i didn't care about at all and Resistance that I couldn't get into because of how badly it started.

After all I did use to read old EU back in day so I did encounter both good and bad in it. It's just that I am not bothered by LF throwing all that way for new material and instead using some things from it beause I saw how bad old EU could be when not written by some one like Timothy Zhan or Michael J. Stackpole and when doing same things over and over again but just with new super weapon. Which is why I find it ironic how fans of old EU like to hate Starkiller base being basically just bigger Death Star and use that as example of LF being unoriginal when old EU did same thing.

Yes, I tend to have encountered lot of those edges of fandom in Youtube when I still watched SW lore videos. In fact those people were reason why I stopped watching those videos in first place. It wasn't good sign when I drawn to arguments with those people in every comment section of those videos which was daily.

What makes it sad is that it's behavior of that part of fandom that drowns any legit critizims that others might have under they inmature behavior. I really want that people like you that have legit critizisms and that are willing to have civilized conversation are heard but it's that toxic part of fandom that makes it impossible.

[Captain Crimson]

You give Mr. Lucas too much credit and treat him and his work perfect. Just look bad choices that he made with PT and you see that he is far from that image that you have about him. Conbsidering that being in TPM ruined Jake Lloyd's life thanks to Mr. Lucas being unable to direct actual people making it impossible task for unexperienced child when it was also difficult for experienced actor like Liam Neeson. So really you are just cherry picking in order to validate your own views.

I remember when PT come out and there was similar out of line reactions to it as there has been for ST. So in other words it has only that it has only gotten far worse from those days with social media giving even better platform for toxic fandom.

Who, me? Frankly, I find the prequels rather so-so. I love the FX, I love the battle sequences, and the ship combat, but not much more past that. I think SWIII gave the best performances, but I prefer the novels. And, I am not sure if you are aware what I actually think of him? I mean, he is hardly perfect, of course, what person is, and from his contradictory accounts, you really don't know what to believe. He's also subject to the same biases that we all are. In the end, however, I respect his vision. I've said elsewhere I think the EU expands off the six films much like the SG TV shows do, and it was definitely tailored to that vision, despite propaganda myths that might claim otherwise. And the top dogs now are not honoring that legacy.

There was, definitely, fan criticisms. Some fan groups today like to wash their hands of it, and act as if the fandom is all right, that back then it was only the media doing the damages. I can't agree with that view at all. I can say, however, I think ultimately that the ST is watered down and it will hold up far better among casuals that pop out a watch every three to four years, but past that, when you get into hardcore geek circles I can't say that. And that, furthermore, I believe any deeper understanding you have for the old continuity, the less appreciation you have for the new material. I see it as their attempts to make it accessible to casuals and children, but that is just my opinion. And a reboot and remaking older content is the go-to for corporate laziness. It's why I watch much for the same reason I'll return to the PT so often. You just gotta roll with it. But the PT is done, while the ST just ended. It's technically "the new hotness." For now.

Here's an example to that. Do I like Baby Yoda Species? Yes. I geeked out over it with TM. It was definitely cute, and not in a retch kinda way, mind you, in a Puss N Boots way. And... do I still have issues with it? Sure. Just roll with it. And keep criticizing so you don't fall into intellectual sloth.

Toxic fans, especially in a passion project where everyone has an opinion and a huge number of people know about it, is a problem. I get that. And I certainly don't allow them to go on without any comment. I see someone bullying an actor, I'll call them out. Whether that is Jake Lloyd or Ms. Tran. And yeah, the underbelly of the SW fandom is certainly an ugly thing. But at the end of the day, that is one part of the story. I don't get why you bash the fandom so often and seem to give a pass to the top brass? Do they deserve they hate they get? No. I'd say not. Is there valid criticism? Definitely. And have they encouraged it? I say yes, barring exceptions. As I also said, I'm not a member of the fandom menace nor would I ever want to. I tend to avoid places like YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook for the most part, so I don't see those edges of fandom. Maybe you just hang around in different circles. If so, I apologize for any bad experiences you've had.

I can understnd why it might seem like I am giving top brass free pass because of how much toxic fanbase irks me and how much I tend to attack them instead of top brass. I guess it's just that my stance towards what top brass is doing is very neutral. Granted I haven't been keeping it secret that I do enjoy lot of things that LF has put out. Only things so far that I haven't liked is Solo that i didn't care about at all and Resistance that I couldn't get into because of how badly it started.

After all I did use to read old EU back in day so I did encounter both good and bad in it. It's just that I am not bothered by LF throwing all that way for new material and instead using some things from it beause I saw how bad old EU could be when not written by some one like Timothy Zhan or Michael J. Stackpole and when doing same things over and over again but just with new super weapon. Which is why I find it ironic how fans of old EU like to hate Starkiller base being basically just bigger Death Star and use that as example of LF being unoriginal when old EU did same thing.

Yes, I tend to have encountered lot of those edges of fandom in Youtube when I still watched SW lore videos. In fact those people were reason why I stopped watching those videos in first place. It wasn't good sign when I drawn to arguments with those people in every comment section of those videos which was daily.

What makes it sad is that it's behavior of that part of fandom that drowns any legit critizims that others might have under they inmature behavior. I really want that people like you that have legit critizisms and that are willing to have civilized conversation are heard but it's that toxic part of fandom that makes it impossible.

Well, I can sympathize. To an extent, I think the degree of variation here is that there's a huge number of fans and only a small number of LF or even Disney employees, so it can have a sense of being ganged up on, especially with a cultural event like SW is. And you know, that you love anything in the new canon is quite honestly no mark on you. Sincerely and genuinely. But nobody should get a pass from criticism here, regardless of whether or not we love the stuff. You yourself concede there is plenty of valid points, so, you know... it could just be we have different tastes. Not a sin.

Maybe you would care more if you saw it as I did? It's creative theft. Not legal theft, mind you, since they own the IP. They can strip it down for parts all they want to. But at the end of the day, it is also diminishing and cheapening a lot of art. Art that was made tailored to a singular vision, and not only what was merely popular and sells well either. You also strike me as if you didn't explore much past a few EU novels. I love plenty many more than those you listed. Matt Stover, Drew Karpyshyn, Kevin J. Anderson, Jude Watson, James Luceno, etc... and I could name many more.

"Doing the same things over and over" is really what the Disney canon has been doing as well, so logically speaking your argument doesn't hold up past a subjective bias. But when has a human being ever been logical? The criticism they are unoriginal is valid, I'm sorry, but it is true when we know Mr. Lucas's original story treatments involved a microbiotic world of the Whills. I find that to be a rather interesting take on it. Maybe you're one of those fans who hate midi-chlorians? I am rather neutral on those, but I think Mr. Luceno did a great job with the Plagueis novel. I think a core problem here is... well, like you said. Fan voices overlap, so stuff like genuine criticism gets lost. My big beef with them is now it feels like everybody and their grandma has a hand in the pot, and for all his flaws, Mr. Lucas was humble. Now it's fueled by classic Hollyweird vanity. And the money is a central component to a degree I think never mattered to Mr. Lucas. It is very off-putting to me. They are not honoring the legacy or the source material when they take from it and never acknowledge it. I mean, by Ms. Kennedy's own admission, they don't have any, it's just an afterthought.

Channels like WorldClassBullshitters and a few who pop up on Geeks & Gamers? Yeah, I call them fandom menace. It's what they call themselves. While a few of them are okay, I don't get the point to many of them. What is their goal? A ton of them have only have a passing understanding with the EU, so I don't get how they can call Rey a Mary Sue without admitting Anakin Skywalker was also one until SWII. On the context of taking the character Jaina Solo and flipping her over and revising her history, she is a Mary Sue, as I see it. But the naysayers don't know that. And as you said, it's sad because they drown out other voices. That might be a reason LF likes to pretend the old Legends fandom are toxic alt-right trolls or bigots. It's easier to discredit a portion of the fandom smaller than the casuals and children making up the bulk of the profits. Is there overlap between fandom menace and the Legends base? Sure. But the ones I see are those who want to conduct themselves accordingly, so they raise a billboard that specifically highlights what we want, not demands, a request to continue more Legends tales. But LF has a selective bias in here, acting only as if more easter eggs is more EU. It's pandering to try and make us go away. It's easier to pander. It's easier to just call dissenters bigoted and try and act like your stuff is gold. Ah, and there's that Hollyweird ego again.

That's where I'm coming from. My larger concern is that with the groundwork TCW laid down, that Disney is continuing, that continuity is going to stop mattering at some point. The spin-offs follow their own continuity with no regards to other established lore, and it will be the death knell to the quality of the story, as a rich mythology bursting with so many characters and planets and stories. And if you want to ignore continuity, then why not go nuts? Get wild and inventive. As Ms. Frizzle tells the class, "Take chances! Make mistakes! Get messy!" But, it strikes me as if nobody working at LF has any vision. I find their scoreboard of what they want for the High Republic project personally embarrassing. They want diversity, but never mention the diverse cast of the Lucas age past only a small sample. It's really like it never existed to them. Is the backlash overblown? Sure. It was against Mr. Lucas. But they also had a hand in encouraging it against themselves with their policies and the corporate limitations imposed upon them. I just wish we had the artists in charge again, and not the vain businessmen. And I also just wish the new canon can coexist alongside Legends, rather than at the expense of it. But as Mr. Chuck always says, I'm just a viewer with an opinion.

[Mecha82]

Maybe you would care more if you saw it as I did? It's creative theft. Not legal theft, mind you, since they own the IP. They can strip it down for parts all they want to. But at the end of the day, it is also diminishing and cheapening a lot of art. Art that was made tailored to a singular vision, and not only what was merely popular and sells well either. You also strike me as if you didn't explore much past a few EU novels. I love plenty many more than those you listed. Matt Stover, Drew Karpyshyn, Kevin J. Anderson, Jude Watson, James Luceno, etc... and I could name many more.

Yeah, I don't see issue in what you call "creative theft". I guess it's becaue I have been liking how they have been using those elements from old EU. Funny that you mentioned those authors because only one from those who I remember is Kevin J. Anderson and I don't like his work. Like at all. Yes, that's how much I hate Dark Apprentice. I can only assume that others wrote so forgetable stories that they names didn't stick to my mind.