General Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel discussion thread.

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FaxModem1
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Re: General Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel discussion thread.

Post by FaxModem1 »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
FaxModem1 wrote:Sometimes it's preaching got grating. Remember season 4's message about how evil the 'big bad military' is? Especially for wanting to actually fight the forces of hell and protect the American people? No, only Buffy can/should do that,
I don't think that's fair. In season five and onward, when Reilly joined a purely military unit, they were actually shown as reasonably effective in comparison.

So maybe its a retcon, but in hindsight, the message seems to be that the Initiative's problem, if anything, is that it wasn't pure military. It was Mrs. Frankenstein's pet project, run by people who were either corrupt, or clueless.
I rewatched season 4 because of this thread. Made me think. It had to have been a retcon, because Buffy gives the moral of the whole Initiative plotline in the penultimate episode of season 4:
BUFFY
This isn't your business. It's mine. You,
the Initiative, the boys at the Pentagon…
You're in way over heads. Messing with
primeval forces you've got no comprehension of.
COLONEL McNAMARA
And you do.
BUFFY
I'm the Slayer. You're playing on my turf.
In essence, only super powered teenagers and their friends should fight evil, not professionals like the 'big bad military'.
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Re: General Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel discussion thread.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

To be fair, Buffy kind of did have a point there- I don't think the Initiative (or the outsiders brought in to take control after Walsh screwed it up) really knew much about the supernatural. Riley's outfit in season five seemed to be more on the ball, sort of an "Initiative done right".

But its also fair to say that Buffy continuity (as tends to be the case in any long-running franchise) gets a bit... fuzzy, at times.

Edits: Though it also wouldn't surprise me if they got some complaints about having an "anti-military" message (just speculating here). I don't know if Whedon would bow to that sort of pressure, but "respect the troops" is one of the few near-universal lines in American politics and culture. Even people who are anti-war tend to avoid overt hostility to veterans (unless they're complete fringe wackos like the West. Baptist Church).

Though strangely, and somewhat contradictorily, this is also paired with a deep cultural distrust of government and authority, which is probably where a lot of the Initiative portrayal you're referring to comes from.
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Re: General Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel discussion thread.

Post by RobbyB1982 »

Personally I still think the craziest thing the show ever did was in the first episode of season 7, where they have ALL the previous big bads show up, some of them in super heavy makeup that took hours and hours to apply, for roughly a 10 second cameo each.

And then didn't use any of them during the season.

I mean it's a cool moment, but you called the actor in and put them through all the makeup for THAT?
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Re: General Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel discussion thread.

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RobbyB1982 wrote:Personally I still think the craziest thing the show ever did was in the first episode of season 7, where they have ALL the previous big bads show up, some of them in super heavy makeup that took hours and hours to apply, for roughly a 10 second cameo each.

And then didn't use any of them during the season.

I mean it's a cool moment, but you called the actor in and put them through all the makeup for THAT?
Yes, that was a big moment, that could have lead to something really cool, and what did we get? Ghost Buffy and vague evilness is coming for most of a season.
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Re: General Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel discussion thread.

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The Romulan Republic wrote:To be fair, Buffy kind of did have a point there- I don't think the Initiative (or the outsiders brought in to take control after Walsh screwed it up) really knew much about the supernatural. Riley's outfit in season five seemed to be more on the ball, sort of an "Initiative done right".

But its also fair to say that Buffy continuity (as tends to be the case in any long-running franchise) gets a bit... fuzzy, at times.
The writers stacked the deck there to make their point. The Initiative can't be a professional military who eliminates the enemy, or they wouldn't have a plot as Sunnydale becomes demon-free. They also can't be a force that treats the enemy humanely, showing that the demons they fight are considered people, or the Initiative would be considered more humane and heroic than the Scooby gang. The Initiative, at no point, considers terminating the hostile creatures in their captivity when they are getting overcrowded. If they are mindless military grunts, and just consider the 'HSTs' animals, they can surely put some down to make room, right? This runs into the problem of if they did so, they couldn't have Adam take down the Initiative through hubris.

Any other direction, and the writers can't have one super-powered girl be more important than hundreds of soldiers.
Edits: Though it also wouldn't surprise me if they got some complaints about having an "anti-military" message (just speculating here). I don't know if Whedon would bow to that sort of pressure, but "respect the troops" is one of the few near-universal lines in American politics and culture. Even people who are anti-war tend to avoid overt hostility to veterans (unless they're complete fringe wackos like the West. Baptist Church).

Though strangely, and somewhat contradictorily, this is also paired with a deep cultural distrust of government and authority, which is probably where a lot of the Initiative portrayal you're referring to comes from.
The Initiative don't have uniform or hair standards, do not seem to have ranks, and the chain of command for their base is confusing. There is no real explanation for why they are infiltrating a local university instead of setting up shop, aside from making a grand reveal about who Riley and company are. It also made me wonder why they were wasting time teaching classes to local kids when more time could be spent doing reconnaissance, experimenting, and/or getting some actual sleep. They also are all carrying experimental weapons with no steady backup in case the fancy taser breaks while fighting some monster. But they couldn't do that, because Adam being shot in the brain by a 9mm would have negated the writer's point about Buffy being special. In short, the needs of the plot outweighed any real sense.

Considering how odd the Initiative acted, and were truly nothing like a real military organization, it felt a bit like anyone who hasn't served in the military tries to write them: not caring how the actual military operates, with their prejudice about it from the Vietnam era intact, despite the military largely changing in the past few decades. Even the troops are one solid stone's throw away from flipping out and going kill-crazy. See James Cameron and anytime he has soldiers in his movies(Avatar, Aliens).

It's a bit like how cops or soldiers act in a horror movie, in order to ensure the most amount of deaths happen, and the script continues. Which, if you view Buffy as existing in a horror movie world, makes a bit of sense.

There's a crossover fanfic that had an explanation that I always liked to explain why everything with the Initiative didn't make sense. They were actually the NID from Stargate SG-1, plucking recruits from basic training, and since they were always screw ups and full of corruption, this was just one more for the pile.

The reason why this irks a bit more than vampires, demons, hellgods, or an immoral warlock politician, is that all of those are fantastic, and are part of the Buffy franchise subculture, whereas the Initiative is drawing from real life, and did so very poorly.
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Re: General Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel discussion thread.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

RobbyB1982 wrote:Personally I still think the craziest thing the show ever did was in the first episode of season 7, where they have ALL the previous big bads show up, some of them in super heavy makeup that took hours and hours to apply, for roughly a 10 second cameo each.

And then didn't use any of them during the season.

I mean it's a cool moment, but you called the actor in and put them through all the makeup for THAT?
Yeah, I can see how that might be annoying for the actors, but its still one of my all-time favourite television monologues.

And I do think they got some good mileage out of the First's impersonations, but they could have done more with it. Unfortunately, I gather some of the people they could have had (see Jenny, Tara) had actors who didn't want to return.

My favourite First scene, though, besides the one above is when the First finally reveals itself in "Conversations with Dead People", to Willow. I really admire the actress in that scene (who had previously played a one-episode character earlier in the season)- the way that her persona subtly slips from good-natured teenage girl to pure malevolence over the course of that conversation is very well-done, in my opinion. Probably my favourite one or two episode guest performance in the series.
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Re: General Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel discussion thread.

Post by BunBun299 »

I really liked Buffy up through season 5. Seasons 6 and 7, while there were good parts here and there, I ended up finding virtually every character except Spike and Andrew grating after a while.

Angel I thought had a more consistent run when all was said and done.
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Re: General Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel discussion thread.

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I think season 6's problem was that they wanted to show us who the Scooby Gang were when they weren't against a greater threat. What we got wasn't exactly a nice thing to see. The issue with that is, they're a group of jerks who are a few months away from tearing each other apart if they don't have someone to unleash their bitterness and anger on. Willow was mickeying her girlfriend to prevent her from leaving, Buffy was in a destructive relationship with Spike, Anya and Xander were in a loveless relationship, Dawn was lost and had no one to really lean on, and Giles left, thinking that him being near people was worse than being far from them.

By season 7, they tried to fix it, but there was too much damage.

I think it's why Angel worked better. Sure, Angel's crew did some morally dubious things, and did get into arguments with each other, but they seemed more grown up about what they were going through, and if they crossed a line with each other, it seemed more understandable. And in the end, they were still together, even when the end of the world came and it was time to fight an army.
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Re: General Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel discussion thread.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

FaxModem1 wrote:I think season 6's problem was that they wanted to show us who the Scooby Gang were when they weren't against a greater threat. What we got wasn't exactly a nice thing to see.
I think it was a very good idea in theory, to show how even humans without special powers could be a deadly threat, rather than trying to one-up themselves after they just had a freaking god as the main villain. It could have been better-executed, but it wasn't a bad concept.
The issue with that is, they're a group of jerks who are a few months away from tearing each other apart if they don't have someone to unleash their bitterness and anger on. Willow was mickeying her girlfriend to prevent her from leaving, Buffy was in a destructive relationship with Spike, Anya and Xander were in a loveless relationship, Dawn was lost and had no one to really lean on, and Giles left, thinking that him being near people was worse than being far from them.

By season 7, they tried to fix it, but there was too much damage.
I don't think that's fair.

All of those characters have a dark side, but they always rallied together when the chips were really down. We see in the finale the great lengths Xander and Giles (and to a lesser extent Dawn and Buffy) go to to save Willow when she goes crazy. Nor would I call Xander and Anya's relationship loveless. I'd say that they loved each other, but that that was undermined by Xander's insecurities and, to a lesser extent, Anya's lack of tact.

Though Xander and Anya's relationship did ultimately lead to "Selfless" in season seven, which is one of the season's best in my opinion and great character development for Anya.
I think it's why Angel worked better. Sure, Angel's crew did some morally dubious things, and did get into arguments with each other, but they seemed more grown up about what they were going through, and if they crossed a line with each other, it seemed more understandable. And in the end, they were still together, even when the end of the world came and it was time to fight an army.
Um... I think you have a double-standard here? Or have you forgotten Angel trying to murder Wes in the hospital, followed by Wes literally going and sleeping with the enemy? To take just one example.

I think, at the end of the day, I prefer Buffy because Angel, for all its strengths, just feels... joyless, a lot of the time. Its much more bleak in its outlook, with a message that amounts to "You'll never win, the best you can hope for is to go down fighting", in contrast to Buffy's more hopeful outlook. It just never felt that it had the variety, the life, the shear fun of its progenitor to me.
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Re: General Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel discussion thread.

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Buffy follows the Bugs Bunny principle. As long as there is someone worse than them to fight, their antics are okay. When their fight is against people they considered unworthy of associating with in high school, they come off as bullies. Even if logically, the Trio are the ones who started it.

I think that's part of the problem with Buffy(the show), honestly. It stayed in the concept of fighting monsters on a weekly basis, and dealing with a bigger threat. This meant that the characters weren't allowed to grow in directions they could have. Angel(the show), had the focus on saving people. This gave them more room to grow in the type of stories they could tell. They didn't always do it right, and did go into some petty disputes, but at the end, they seemed much more well rounded people than the Scooby Gang did.

Though, I'll be honest, I think Angel is a show that started off weak, and grew into it's own, while Buffy was a show that was great, and faded.
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