Discovery Renewed for Season 5

[CharlesPhipps]

Making "Section 31" an unambiguous part of the Federation is a violation of everything Star Trek is - excuse me, was - about.

I feel like complaints like this are less justified than they think because they engage with the OT Star Trek end of it but refuse to engage with the DISCO end. The DISCO end has the idea that 200 years ago, there was a part of the Federation called Section 31 and it was utterly wiped out. Promptly getting rebuilt deeply-deeply under the radar.

It means that you'd be dealing with a guy claiming to be part of Washington's secret spy network.

It feels like the fans don't want to argue about that because they feel like they'd be legitimizing DISCO just to talk about why or why that doesn't work.

[CharlesPhipps]

Wouldn't the mere existence of Section 31 introduced back in 1998 make you sadder, or have you always been skeptical of Federation ideals meaning anything?

I feel like Section 31 fans and detractors talk past one another. The fans act like Section 31 is the reason why Star Trek functions (see the CULTURE reference even though Star Trek absolutely does not believe in the Culture's ethos) while the detractors of Section 31 act like it is a giant betrayal of everything Star Trek is about.

Both sides ignore that Section 31 is there to FAIL. They present an ideological challenge to the Federation but are always in the wrong. DISCO's presentation of Section 31 is an organization that tried to build a huge surveillance state and ended up creating Skynet.

[Frustration]

I feel like complaints like this are less justified than they think because they engage with the OT Star Trek end of it but refuse to engage with the DISCO end.

DIS isn't Star Trek. It's a parasite latched onto Star Trek by the IP owners to extract money.

[CharlesPhipps]

I feel like complaints like this are less justified than they think because they engage with the OT Star Trek end of it but refuse to engage with the DISCO end.

DIS isn't Star Trek. It's a parasite latched onto Star Trek by the IP owners to extract money.

Yes, this exactly. You can't discuss the series with them because they don't want to pretend it exists and like to believe Star Trek wasn't always produced for money.

[Nealithi]

I feel like complaints like this are less justified than they think because they engage with the OT Star Trek end of it but refuse to engage with the DISCO end.

DIS isn't Star Trek. It's a parasite latched onto Star Trek by the IP owners to extract money.

Yes, this exactly. You can't discuss the series with them because they don't want to pretend it exists and like to believe Star Trek wasn't always produced for money.

Okay let me try. Of course every Star Trek was meant to bring in money for all involved. That is like saying I am opening a McDonald's for charity. Disco however does not feel Star Trek. TOS obviously set the stage. TNG carried the utopia torch. DS9 had the utopia in the background and dealt with shadier characters. Sisko, may not be the 'ideal' if we say that Picard is that 'ideal'. But he tried to do his best with the cards he had. Voyager was those ideal and ideas cutoff from home. But many of the core is there. Enterprise for its failings was trying to show fledgling Star Fleet trying to become what is considered the 'ideal'. So in all of these they at some level felt like a respect for the source. Disco in may instances. Sounds like someone had a science fiction idea and they could not get it produced unless they slapped the Trek badge on it. IMHO that is the only truth of DISCO is not Trek. Anything else is in the no true scotsman territory.

As to the whole section 31 bit. The point of this group is they are supposed to be black ops. The totally off the books special forces group. That is how you put it in the charter and no one questions it. In theory they do all sorts of things you don't bat an eye at. Reunification, who made a telescope to look at individual people on the surface of Romulus? Star Fleet command? The Federation council? They signed away cloaking tech and all research on it for a treaty. They are not going to approve something that invasive. So SF Intelligence basically is Section 31, doing the things people don't want to talk about but are sometimes necessary for security. But like any group bits can be corrupted. So you get Control, so you get plagues to wipe out a species.
The only place I feel Section 31 did not belong was Enterprise because it predated the Federation that gave it the name.

[CharlesPhipps]

As to the whole section 31 bit. The point of this group is they are supposed to be black ops. The totally off the books special forces group. That is how you put it in the charter and no one questions it. In theory they do all sorts of things you don't bat an eye at. Reunification, who made a telescope to look at individual people on the surface of Romulus? Star Fleet command? The Federation council? They signed away cloaking tech and all research on it for a treaty. They are not going to approve something that invasive. So SF Intelligence basically is Section 31, doing the things people don't want to talk about but are sometimes necessary for security. But like any group bits can be corrupted. So you get Control, so you get plagues to wipe out a species.
The only place I feel Section 31 did not belong was Enterprise because it predated the Federation that gave it the name.

This is kind of the thing that I would like to talk about, actually. The funny thing is that DISCO fans know that they actually addressed this in the season finale of season 2 and it is a major plot point. Section 31 was the Star Fleet black ops organization and special forces division. However, the organization was totally wiped out by CONTROL and disbanded with all events classified due to how much it made the Federation look like a bunch of morons.

But the Federation (in DISCO and DS9) needs a group like this so they recreate the organization totally off the books and completely denied. It's no longer something that people know about or has its own fleets or operatives. Starfleet only deals with it unofficially so nothing like this can blow back again.

The writers knew that the Spore Drive and other stuff in DISCO was against canon as we know it so they wrote a retcon in that put all their toys back in place. It even gave Section 31 an "origin" unlike ENTERPRISE.

"S31 in DS9 is a deniable asset of Star Fleet but not officially part of it. It used to be an official agency but that agency was disbanded 100 years ago."

[Nealithi]

As to the whole section 31 bit. The point of this group is they are supposed to be black ops. The totally off the books special forces group. That is how you put it in the charter and no one questions it. In theory they do all sorts of things you don't bat an eye at. Reunification, who made a telescope to look at individual people on the surface of Romulus? Star Fleet command? The Federation council? They signed away cloaking tech and all research on it for a treaty. They are not going to approve something that invasive. So SF Intelligence basically is Section 31, doing the things people don't want to talk about but are sometimes necessary for security. But like any group bits can be corrupted. So you get Control, so you get plagues to wipe out a species.
The only place I feel Section 31 did not belong was Enterprise because it predated the Federation that gave it the name.

This is kind of the thing that I would like to talk about, actually. The funny thing is that DISCO fans know that they actually addressed this in the season finale of season 2 and it is a major plot point. Section 31 was the Star Fleet black ops organization and special forces division. However, the organization was totally wiped out by CONTROL and disbanded with all events classified due to how much it made the Federation look like a bunch of morons.

But the Federation (in DISCO and DS9) needs a group like this so they recreate the organization totally off the books and completely denied. It's no longer something that people know about or has its own fleets or operatives. Starfleet only deals with it unofficially so nothing like this can blow back again.

The writers knew that the Spore Drive and other stuff in DISCO was against canon as we know it so they wrote a retcon in that put all their toys back in place. It even gave Section 31 an "origin" unlike ENTERPRISE.

"S31 in DS9 is a deniable asset of Star Fleet but not officially part of it. It used to be an official agency but that agency was disbanded 100 years ago."

To me S31 is the Trek CIA or MI5. They have plenty of normal work. Analysts that there job is to take information and put it together like a puzzle. Collate reports and so on. But you also have the assassins and other bits people don't like to talk about. I figure in the Trek time there does not seem to be a sensationalized news service or an action packed Hollywood spreading a stereotype.
So they remain anonymous that way.

[CharlesPhipps]

I always liked the theory Section 31 in its new form isn't a group but it's a condition.

I.e. When a mission is Section 31, it means it's unsanctioned and denied.

But it's carried out by Starfleet Intelligence officers and regular members of Starfleet. So Sloane has a day job and it's why they use Bashir.

[Nealithi]

I always liked the theory Section 31 in its new form isn't a group but it's a condition.

I.e. When a mission is Section 31, it means it's unsanctioned and denied.

But it's carried out by Starfleet Intelligence officers and regular members of Starfleet. So Sloane has a day job and it's why they use Bashir.

A day job sounds right. But wouldn't they need regular recruiting and not the kidnap you to make you work things?
Also would this mean the mission Picard, Dr. Crusher, and Worf went on was an S31 job?

[Frustration]

You can't discuss the series with them because they don't want to pretend it exists and like to believe Star Trek wasn't always produced for money.

Nonsense. Roddenberry could have done many different things to squeeze as much money as possible out of Star Trek, but he didn't do them. The show's positions on things were so controversial that some affiliates refused to broadcast it, but he maintained. Arguably getting rid of the female First Officer was as much 'compromising' of his vision as he was willing to accept.

New Trek is clearly intended for the mass audience, both in that it has jettisoned the Star Trek vision in favor of popular violence and sex and appeals to target demographic prejudices, and in that it's aimed at the Lowest Common Denominator in terms of quality of writing.

It exists, in the same sense that the chestburster that has just exploded from the chest of a beloved crewmember exists. It has consumed the life of that which we loved in order to benefit itself.