Star Wars Needs to Let the Dark Side Be More Interesting | Glass of Water - [Lily Orchard]

[clearspira]

I think we can agree one thing: the Force as presented in the OT and as explained by Obi Wan/Yoda is incompatible with what would come later.

Looking for deeper meaning today is putting far too much faith into JJ Abrams tbh.

[MithrandirOlorin]

I think we can agree one thing: the Force as presented in the OT and as explained by Obi Wan/Yoda is incompatible with what would come later.

Looking for deeper meaning today is putting far too much faith into JJ Abrams tbh.

It is certainly compatible with the PT.

If there is anything Lucas Himself did that was incompibtle with his actual Vision for the Force, I would say that's the very existence of Force Ghosts which exist because he let his wife talk him into killing off Obi-Won early.

[phantom000]

One key problem is that Lucas tried to combine classic Western ideas about good and evil, including color associations, with classic Eastern ideas about degrees of a spectrum where all the states are vitally important. Yang and Yin are intrinsically related, cannot be separated, and are both vital to existence - but humans have a tendency towards yang and must be urged towards balance. So Taoist thinking emphasizes yin over yang, and Buddhist thought likewise.

I have read, although I can't confirm this, that Lucas created the original film because he wanted to see a classic 'good guys vs. bad guys' stories that weren't really being made in Hollywood at the time. The 1970's were the golden age of sci-fi dystopia; Soylent Green, Rollerball and Logan's Run even non-science fiction films like Dirty Harry and Kelly's Heroes have similar themes. Lucas had grown up with heroes like Flash Gordon, The Lone Ranger and Dick Tracy and wanted to do something similar. Like I said i'm not sure how accurate this is but it would explain why ANH feels very much like a fairy tale in space; young man gets a magic sword from a wizard and goes to rescue a princess from an evil fortress with a pirate and a yeti.

I wonder if Lucas intended to make a saga, I know the 'Episode IV: A New Hope' was not in the original theatrical release and some have said that Lucas expected it to be just a single film.

But I think this is why SW has always had trouble with moral complexity, because it was never meant to be a part of the story to begin with. In the Original Trilogy the bad guys are just about as evil as you can get and any example of a 'grey area' is mostly hand waved away. Lando is helping Vader but they show that Vader is threatening him and Cloud City, the only person who might be neutral in all of this, Boba Fett, is never really developed in the original films so he is just one more of Vader's minions. Even in Clone Wars the Seperatists are shown to be good and honorable people but they make it clear that Grevious and Dooku are lying to them so any 'grey' is effectively erased.

[phantom000]

It's not learning from the past, it's just copying it.

I feel like this is the Disney trilogy in a nutshell. The new trilogy is a pale imitation of the original trilogy because they have all the weaknesses of the original, but none of its strengths. It just repeats the past without understanding why it worked the first time.

[Frustration]

the only person who might be neutral in all of this, Boba Fett, is never really developed in the original films so he is just one more of Vader's minions.

I think the "No disintegrations!" line firmly establishes him as not-a-good-guy.

The problem is that, while Lucas wanted to have good-vs-evil, he wasn't as stringent about it at first as he was later. A big problem with the re-releases of the original films is that Han's character arc was somewhat ruined - he was initially presented as a dangerous rogue in a dangerous galaxy, ruthless and practical. Lucas deciding that he couldn't shoot first ruined that particular scene, the tension with Luke and Kenobi's hiring him, and ultimately his rejection of pragmatism in favor of the "right thing".

Let's not even discuss how having Jabba show up ruins the reveal of the third film.

[Winter]

It's not learning from the past, it's just copying it.

I feel like this is the Disney trilogy in a nutshell. The new trilogy is a pale imitation of the original trilogy because they have all the weaknesses of the original, but none of its strengths. It just repeats the past without understanding why it worked the first time.

This is especially notable with films like Fear Street, which emulates a LOT of Horror tropes almost to the point that it feels like it's just copying other genres BUT it adds a lot of more modern elements to the mix (like having the driving force behind the film be a lesbian love story) and gives the characters full and complete arcs and has a central threat that is behind all the monsters so when we go from one horror genre to another feels natural. Fear Street uses the past as a blue print to tell a new kind of story that isn't ground breaking BUT is still unique to itself and as such is loved by most horror fans.

Same thing could be said with the She-Ra Reboot, Arcane, Amphibia and The Owl House, these shows poke fun at the past but show respect towards it and use it as a blue print for how to tell a new story. She-Ra is a standard hero's journey with an evil empire and rival/love interest but adds a number of new ideas like asking the question "Is the hero wanting nothing for themselves really a good thing or should they be given the chance to be happy?"

Arcane is a standard video game movie adaptation that changes the tone and lore elements from the source material but also still emulates the games with bits of humor and does stay true to the most important elements of the lore and characters and is more open about the things the game was vague on (Vi and Caitlyn's is a LOT less subtle then it is in the game). And Amphibia along with The Owl House spend most of their time poking fun at fantasy tropes like the chosen one, how true love works but still uses these same ideas to tell a story that is compelling and thought provoking.

TDST doesn't do this, it's just playing it safe by copying Lucas' home work and using nothing new. The Original Trilogy was a story that emulated stories Lucas grew up with as a kid but added many elements that were new at the time. Leia was a badass who could hold her own in a fight, Luke and Han were in over their head and survived by the skin of their teeth and Vader was more morally complex then it first seemed. Sure, some of these were things that happened as the story went on and not planned as Lucas claims but it showed that Lucas took the time to learn from each film to try and tell a more compelling story.

[MithrandirOlorin]

Yin-Yang isn't the only Eastern Mysticism, the idea of The Force as an infection fits Kegare in Shintoism pretty well, which was also the basis for how Malice works in the most recent Zelda games.

[phantom000]

Getting back to the original point; I do agree that if the Sith are going to be a part of SW then they need to have more personality. I don't mean a sith anti-hero or even an anti-villain but just something to make them more interesting. Bringing back Palpatine as the big bad of the DST I think was a big mistake because as a villain, he's just not that interesting. He never appears in ANH, has one scene in ESB to send Vader on his mission, and in ROTJ spends most of the film sitting on his throne, twirling his mustache and munching the scenery.

I think the reason characters like Boba Fett and Darth Maul became such fan favorites was because they have a character that is more than just a generic bad guy for the heroes to defeat, despite having limited screen time.

Even if you don't like the idea of a good sith, you can still make them better villains just by having them do something more than sitting on their butt and gloating about how evil they are. It gets very boring very quickly.

[Frustration]

In a way, Sith are drug addicts, only the 'drug' is power. The more they gain, the more they want. Isn't that the whole point of the stifling Jedi lifestyle, to try to prevent people from seeking greater and greater power?

You can do all sorts of interesting stories - some redemptive, some not - about otherwise normal people seeking power for valid reasons and slowly becoming monsters in the pursuit. It makes for a much better story than "Look at me, I'm Eeeeeevil, bwa ha ha!"

[phantom000]

In a way, Sith are drug addicts, only the 'drug' is power. The more they gain, the more they want.

You know that explains a lot about Palpatine, because by this analogy; all he seems to do is sit in his chair and get stoned. How many times could you watch that before it got boring?