The term "Mary Sue" needs to die.

[Karha of Honor]

What does muscle mass or any of that have to do with how characters are written?

Reality has an effect on action movies.

[Admiral X]

Not that much - it's part of what makes them action movies.

[Karha of Honor]

Not that much - it's part of what makes them action movies.

Any globally prominent movies of ISIS members fighting the good fight? Rapists as heroes of action movies? Do the newest IRL weapons gain prominence? Action movies do interact with the real world.

[MithrandirOlorin]

Not that much - it's part of what makes them action movies.

Any globally prominent movies of ISIS members fighting the good fight? Rapists as heroes of action movies? Do the newest IRL weapons gain prominence? Action movies do interact with the real world.

I'm confused, are you saying no Action Heroes are Rapists? Because James Bond.

[Karha of Honor]

Not that much - it's part of what makes them action movies.

Any globally prominent movies of ISIS members fighting the good fight? Rapists as heroes of action movies? Do the newest IRL weapons gain prominence? Action movies do interact with the real world.

I'm confused, are you saying no Action Heroes are Rapists? Because James Bond.

Of course not.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

In the hopes of saving a worthwhile topic of discussion from being smothered by a single argument, I'll give my opinion without any mention of the Star Wars franchise.

I hew a lot closer to Seanan MacGuire's view than any of its critics I've seen in this thread so far -- the double standards that apply to women in fiction are obvious to all but the wilfully blind, and mirror sexist behaviours in real life. Expertise is questioned baselessly; tragedies that, in men's backstories, evoke empathy invite belittlement when women suffer them; excellence is met with loud disbelief.

I kind of feel sorry for people who can't accept these things. For those familiar with the Stormlight Archive, imagine reading of Shallan Davar's heartbreaking losses (of both loved ones and her own innocence) and refusal to break, her determination to continue spreading hope to all she meets, bringing out their best selves on her quest to learn everything there is to know and also save the world -- and concluding that all that is some bullshit cause how could that kid possibly do all that, huh? That's just sad, isn't it?

Here is the deal, real life gunfights, gang brawls and fist fights are sexist because of nature/evolution. Women can carry less weight, get dominated in pro sports when faced with the best male athletes etc... I like me some fictional Amazon ass kicking but when survival mode kicks in it's understandable why the male perspective would be dominant.

Demonstrably false. You know the REAL reason sports are sex-segregated? One gal got too good at baseball, and everyone was afraid about the sociological fallout of a GIRL being BETTER at SPORTS.

Even in fights to the death, muscle mass isn't the only consideration. We have to factor in pain threshold, endurance, flexibility, agility, etc.

Wasn't that one gal a giant anomaly?

How many women sitting in prison right now vs how many women?

I uh, think you may have made a typo there. o.0

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

I'd say a lot of people use Mary Sue as shorthand for something that they recognize as bad writing but can't articulate. I do think that female characters are singled out for being "too perfect" when there are a huge number of male characters that would qualify as a Mary Sue/Gary Stu/whatever under the same parameters.

At the same time, I think sci-fi writers in general deserve the reputation they have for struggling to write female characters. That struggle unfortunately is a root cause of some of the stereotypes that sci-fi creators/authors and their fans still deal with. The desire to write "strong" female characters is part of what leads to characters with Mary Sue qualities. A good character is confused with a character who has a long list of positive attributes.

Its easy to see how it could happen with Rey- the new face of the franchise, someone that Disney (presumably) hoped would bring new viewers to Star Wars, someone who would be a "good role model." It was a miscalculation and not great character work. To be fair, its a good bet that Rey will have her struggles in episode 8.

[MithrandirOlorin]

Rey has brought new viewers to Star Wars, lots of people have talked about TFA being the first Star Wars film they really enjoyed.

So no, you can't call it a miscalculation.

[Karha of Honor]

Rey has brought new viewers to Star Wars, lots of people have talked about TFA being the first Star Wars film they really enjoyed.

So no, you can't call it a miscalculation.

Lot's of people. People need to kill this argument. Lot's of people are sexually attracted to cars. Does not mean anything.

They could have cast anyone anyone and the people would have flcoked.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

The fact that TFA has a large number of fans (I'd count myself among them despite its flaws) hardly proves that Rey wasn't a miscalculation from a pure storytelling, artistic perspective. From a cynical money-making perspective it obviously worked out for them, but unfortunately lazy storytelling is often rewarded in immediate box office results.

Like I said, her story isn't finished, so I'm not even putting Rey into the definite "Mary Sue" category yet. She definitely has those tendencies in the first film, though.