GandALF wrote:It might be a response to the mary sue criticism of TFA by reinforcing the theme that the heroes are heroes because they don't give up, not because they're infallible.
That is a theme of this movie that's worth appreciation, and upon future reflection it may gain more cachet.
Perhaps the issue is that it was not the main take-away lesson, which is more akin to "Heroics will just as often get you killed." That is absolutely, positively true. Indeed, it's too real.
There's no new hand waiting on the medical cruiser as we contemplate fighting another day. We're left in mourning for both the Resistance and Luke, and for all the talk of sparks and fires, the mood we're left with is grim indeed.
excalibur wrote:If the admiral had told Po the plan instead of being a bitch to him, he wouldn't have gone off on his own plan.
Are you saying that all military officers high up in the chain of command should explain everything to subordinates? Particulalry ones who seem to not know when is a time to fight and when is a time to run?
Yes, in the military, there needs to be a clear line of communication between those at the top down the chain. In this cast, Po seems to be someone higher up in the Resistance despite his rank, whatever it may be. All the admiral had to do was "We're loading transports to escape that have cloaks."
On the other hand, Poe has just gotten 90% of his command killed chasing after a strategically irrelevant victory and been demoted for it. A plan like "sneak away on cloaked transports so the baddies think they've killed us" requires some level of opsec, and a glory hungry idiot flyboy without a fighter to fly is not going to be on the need to know list.
The rest of the actual command staff are, nobody else is surprised when Poe finds out about the transports being fuelled, after all.
excalibur wrote:If the admiral had told Po the plan instead of being a bitch to him, he wouldn't have gone off on his own plan.
Are you saying that all military officers high up in the chain of command should explain everything to subordinates? Particulalry ones who seem to not know when is a time to fight and when is a time to run?
Yes, in the military, there needs to be a clear line of communication between those at the top down the chain. In this cast, Po seems to be someone higher up in the Resistance despite his rank, whatever it may be. All the admiral had to do was "We're loading transports to escape that have cloaks."
On the other hand, Poe has just gotten 90% of his command killed chasing after a strategically irrelevant victory and been demoted for it. A plan like "sneak away on cloaked transports so the baddies think they've killed us" requires some level of opsec, and a glory hungry idiot flyboy without a fighter to fly is not going to be on the need to know list.
The rest of the actual command staff are, nobody else is surprised when Poe finds out about the transports being fuelled, after all.
Again, sinc ePo seemed to be this famous ace pilot of the Resistance, all his buddies would have told him something by now. The guys in the hanger, the tech guys, other remaining pilots. Seems like everyone knew about the plan except Po
"Adapt, Overcome & Improvise"
"There's a fine line between not listening and not caring...I like to think I walk that line everyday of my life."
excalibur wrote:If the admiral had told Po the plan instead of being a bitch to him, he wouldn't have gone off on his own plan.
Are you saying that all military officers high up in the chain of command should explain everything to subordinates? Particulalry ones who seem to not know when is a time to fight and when is a time to run?
Yes, in the military, there needs to be a clear line of communication between those at the top down the chain. In this cast, Po seems to be someone higher up in the Resistance despite his rank, whatever it may be. All the admiral had to do was "We're loading transports to escape that have cloaks."
On the other hand, Poe has just gotten 90% of his command killed chasing after a strategically irrelevant victory and been demoted for it. A plan like "sneak away on cloaked transports so the baddies think they've killed us" requires some level of opsec, and a glory hungry idiot flyboy without a fighter to fly is not going to be on the need to know list.
The rest of the actual command staff are, nobody else is surprised when Poe finds out about the transports being fuelled, after all.
Again, sinc ePo seemed to be this famous ace pilot of the Resistance, all his buddies would have told him something by now.
1. What makes you think his buddies knew? His buddies were in the fighter squad, and command bridge. Both of which are all but wiped out by the time Holdo takes command.
2. They were right not to tell him anything since he blabbed about what he knew in a transmission to Finn. Even if DJ hadn't been there Finn was going onto a starship....run by people who can rip information from a person's mind. Finn didn't need to know any of that information yet Poe failed OPSEC. It's only after Finn is captured that Poe seemingly considers alternatives.
excalibur wrote:If the admiral had told Po the plan instead of being a bitch to him, he wouldn't have gone off on his own plan.
Are you saying that all military officers high up in the chain of command should explain everything to subordinates? Particulalry ones who seem to not know when is a time to fight and when is a time to run?
Yes, in the military, there needs to be a clear line of communication between those at the top down the chain. In this cast, Po seems to be someone higher up in the Resistance despite his rank, whatever it may be. All the admiral had to do was "We're loading transports to escape that have cloaks."
On the other hand, Poe has just gotten 90% of his command killed chasing after a strategically irrelevant victory and been demoted for it. A plan like "sneak away on cloaked transports so the baddies think they've killed us" requires some level of opsec, and a glory hungry idiot flyboy without a fighter to fly is not going to be on the need to know list.
The rest of the actual command staff are, nobody else is surprised when Poe finds out about the transports being fuelled, after all.
Again, sinc ePo seemed to be this famous ace pilot of the Resistance, all his buddies would have told him something by now. The guys in the hanger, the tech guys, other remaining pilots. Seems like everyone knew about the plan except Po
The ones he hasn't just gotten killed. And who didn't get killed when the hangar got blown up.
The fighter wing is irrelevant to a plan which relies on OpSec, there's a need-to-know list and Poe isn't on it. (Hell, remember the scene where he figures out that they're fuelling the transports to escape? Nobody else present was surprised, it was right there on the monitors, but a disgraced fighter jock who doesn't even have a fighter to fly right now isn't someone who needs to get told things).
I might have to rewatch the movie to get the timeline and facts lined up properly, but it seems pretty clear that Holdo isn't telling anyone her plan outside a couple of people in her command staff. Poe had a lot of help with his mutiny. Since the mutiny is based on the premise that Holdo is a coward and/or traitor, anyone in a position of power who actually had the details of the plan could have set the record straight. Instead almost everyone sides with Poe, which indicates that very few actually knew the details of Holdo's plan.
It's just a contrived scenario. Holdo knew all along that Poe is a hothead who is more than willing to take matters into his own hands, she knows that people are trying to abandon ship, and she knows that morale is low. Holdo lets them in on a part of the plan, but she leaves out the crucial details that make the plan tenable. It comes across as if she's deliberately testing the crew's faith in her rather than actually trying to get the mission done. After she was arrested by Poe, you would think that she or someone else would spill the beans right there in order to save all their lives, but instead she just lets it happen.
It would be one thing if we were given a hint about a possible mole, or that Holdo is a megalomaniac. But there are no such hints, and the script comes out and tells us that Holdo is a good leader.
ChiggyvonRichthofen wrote:
It would be one thing if we were given a hint about a possible mole, or that Holdo is a megalomaniac. But there are no such hints, and the script comes out and tells us that Holdo is a good leader.
Actually....Rose mentions that she's busted 3 people trying to escape in pods. Since we know those people were taken to the brig for desertion...Holdo is likely worried that other people might try to run...and if they do...they could be captured and spill the details of her plan...so the less people that know what's going on the better.
I'll admit...more attention should've been brought to that...but it is there in the script.
Managed to catch the movie at last on Christmas Eve. Left the cinema feeling ambivalent because the visuals and soundtrack were top notch. However having ruminated on the story itself over the last few days I've found myself liking the movie less and less and now have to concede that The Last Jedi is a mess and now personally consider it the worst in the franchise taking into account it's terrible character writing, story and tone.
Everything I found wrong I could only possibly cover in one overly long snark laden review.
Looks like I was completely justified when I said I wouldn't invest any more effort in trying to figure out JJ's "Mysteries" than they had put into writing them. It looks like even that was setting the bar too high. I had minimal expectations and it still failed to reach them. At least we no-longer have to care.
Thread ends here. Cut along dotted line.
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I think one of the reasons people are disliking TLJ is that it spends an awful lot of time tricking you into a perspective that turns out to be wrong.
All of the stuff on the Resistance Cruiser is framed from Poe's perspective, you only have the information he has and his plan looks like the sort of heroic gamble that should work in an action movie, so it looks like he's the one who's doing the right thing there.
But he isn't, he sets up a needlessly risky plan with no support from his superiors, blows opsec completely by blabbing the actual plan to someone who is just about to go into a spaceship run by people who can read minds and who he knows is in the presence of a mercenary third party, and gets 95% of the Resistance killed because of it.
The film tricks you into sympathising with a raging idiot who ruins everything because he can't accept that he's not involved.
