Lower Decks Season 3

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stryke
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Re: Lower Decks Season 3

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Madner Kami wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:55 pm So we're not talking about how "Project Fly By" is the mission-statement of Cerritos/Lower Decks aka "Second Contact" in the first place? You know, going where someone has gone before?
It's an expansion to the second contact mission statement sure. Different priorities to make them distinct. Second contact is a mission of diplomacy. Likely mainly to see if this planet is going to join up with the club or not.

Fly by is more charitable in nature where they're coming back a lot later to see if they're now having problems that the Federation could be helping out with. It's a nice idea and the only reason it's likely not policy already is that the fleet is limited and there's likely better things to be doing than door knocking planets that aren't actively asking for help
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Deledrius
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Re: Lower Decks Season 3

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This season's been great. It's the funniest yet, and has been telling some truly compelling stories at the same time. I'm sad to see the season end so soon.
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CharlesPhipps
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Re: Lower Decks Season 3

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Madner Kami wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:55 pm Undermining what little progress Mariner has made by basically framing her to be what she was from the beginning is... bad. Are we trying to subvert expectations? Get her back and all be hunky-dory as a development-story for Freeman?
I mean, the whole point is illustrating how much progress that Mariner has made. She's become a better officer because of the influence of her friends and Ransom. I'm confused why this is a strange idea to pursue. Shouldn't the characters...change?
Trying to break up the les/uni-bait that was Jennifer/Mariner by hooking her up with another les/uni-bait outside the troupe?
I mean, Mariner's bi and she broke up with her girlfriend because she didn't trust her. This seems like a weird way of phrasing a very normal thing on TV shows with non-endgame love interests.
hammerofglass wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:19 am It's kind of weird how much of this show is about the problems inherent in it's own contrived premise. Immediate family in the same chain of command in violation of all common sense causes issues; also water suspected to be wet.
I'm not sure that's ironic/weird as apropos. They needed a source of drama so they created one.
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Madner Kami
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Re: Lower Decks Season 3

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CharlesPhipps wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:28 pmI mean, the whole point is illustrating how much progress that Mariner has made. She's become a better officer because of the influence of her friends and Ransom. I'm confused why this is a strange idea to pursue. Shouldn't the characters...change?

[...]

I mean, Mariner's bi and she broke up with her girlfriend because she didn't trust her. This seems like a weird way of phrasing a very normal thing on TV shows with non-endgame love interests.
Except they did that to pair her up with a love-interest that is essentially Season-1-to-2-Mariner. And this is done not for her to overcome an obstacle, but to treat her like shit out of nowhere for no good reason. She got boimlered out of nowhere.

I mean, Mariner deserves a lot of come-uppance for her exploits, attitude and treatment of other people and I should be cheering, but treating her that way feels just unasked for.
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CharlesPhipps
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Re: Lower Decks Season 3

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Madner Kami wrote: Sun Oct 23, 2022 12:01 amI mean, Mariner deserves a lot of come-uppance for her exploits, attitude and treatment of other people and I should be cheering, but treating her that way feels just unasked for.
I think you've kind of threaded the needle of the problem. You're meant to feel that Mariner is being treated unfairly because she is. If you were hoping this to be a triumphant moment where she got her comeuppance, well, of course it's not going to feel right since everyone treats her like garbage for the way she used to be.

I suppose it's like Chuck finding a Neelix episode where he feels bad for the guy.
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Riedquat
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Re: Lower Decks Season 3

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CharlesPhipps wrote: Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:54 am I suppose it's like Chuck finding a Neelix episode where he feels bad for the guy.
That happened, well close to it, in Fair Trade. So anything can happen!
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Deledrius
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Re: Lower Decks Season 3

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CharlesPhipps wrote: Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:54 am
Madner Kami wrote: Sun Oct 23, 2022 12:01 amI mean, Mariner deserves a lot of come-uppance for her exploits, attitude and treatment of other people and I should be cheering, but treating her that way feels just unasked for.
I think you've kind of threaded the needle of the problem. You're meant to feel that Mariner is being treated unfairly because she is. If you were hoping this to be a triumphant moment where she got her comeuppance, well, of course it's not going to feel right since everyone treats her like garbage for the way she used to be.

I suppose it's like Chuck finding a Neelix episode where he feels bad for the guy.
Mariner absolutely got the consequences of years-long Crying Wolf. On the one hand, I can't blame a single person for thinking that Mariner was doing exactly what Mariner has always done for as long as they've known her. Her mother especially; as unhinged as Freeman is, she has every reason to assume Mariner's fault in this. Mariner's changes this season have been very subtle and not something she's discussed with anyone, not even her bunkmates.

On the other hand, I've been exactly in her position (for very different behaviors). I lost everyone and everything to a situation where folks assumed I did something that never even happened, because it fit an old pattern I had worked very hard to pull myself out of. It's the worst feeling, being abandoned and misunderstood and blamed like that. The difference is, I didn't get back to the status quo in a week, and there was no Independent Archaeology for me to fall back on in the meanwhile. Mariner's going to be fine, and everyone will learn an important lesson about trusting her. Probably.

I think this episode executed this dilemma perfectly.
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CharlesPhipps
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Re: Lower Decks Season 3

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Indeed, the fact that Mariner actually shaped up because she wasn't under her mother's command is kind of a bizarre thing for a genre show.

"That thing that would never happen in the real world because it's a terrible idea turns out to have been a terrible idea in fiction."
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Madner Kami
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Re: Lower Decks Season 3

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Deledrius wrote: Sun Oct 23, 2022 2:33 pmOn the other hand, I've been exactly in her position (for very different behaviors). I lost everyone and everything to a situation where folks assumed I did something that never even happened, because it fit an old pattern I had worked very hard to pull myself out of. It's the worst feeling, being abandoned and misunderstood and blamed like that.
It certainly is, but it's a price you paid for your past actions. Mind you, I am not judging you or anything, but the people's past experience with you informed their current actions in that situation. It's basically your past self hurting you specifically, instead of others (as your past self seems to have done).
Deledrius wrote: Sun Oct 23, 2022 2:33 pmThe difference is, I didn't get back to the status quo in a week, and there was no Independent Archaeology for me to fall back on in the meanwhile. Mariner's going to be fine, and everyone will learn an important lesson about trusting her. Probably.
I feel that would be the wrong takeaway or resolution. First, there's sending Mariner, her very child, off to Crapville, Nowherestan, because of a hunch and vengeance. That's terrible. Freeman's her mother for fuck's sake. She just abandoned her child, which she personally failed to raise "properly". Second, the lesson shouldn't be to trust Mariner. She's not done that much to earn that yet, in my opinion and third, Mariner isn't fine. Her mother just abandoned her. Her girlfriend dropped her like a hot potato. Her entire framework just collapsed around her without any involvement or agency by her. The last thing she should do, is come back to this ship. She needs to get as far away from her toxic mother as she can and the same is true for abandoning her post to join the other les-yeay character, which turned out to be a thief and traitor, which I feel she primarily does because she wants to spite her mother.
And to come back to point two, the lesson should be, that Freeman needs to be relieved of command and Mariner to be transfered away from her and the clutches of her absentee father, so she actually gets a chance to be herself and develop far away from the social pressures that her parents enact upon her.
Deledrius wrote: Sun Oct 23, 2022 2:33 pmI think this episode executed this dilemma perfectly.
I dispute this, because this show has displayed a consistant incapability of making the characters accountable for their actions and, especially and in particular, failings. Part of this comes from this being a comedy show, but even comedy shows have managed to let their characters develop consistantly and learn from their mistakes. At first glance Lower Decks does occasionally manage that, but this episode shows, that all the little steps are without greater consequence and for what, I do wonder? Mariner is right back to where she started, except to not being Starfleet anymore. Boimler is still a nobody, despite being shown to be one of the most competent people on the ship. Freeman is still a wrathful fury, which explodes at the first opportune moment, despite being in rehab 5 episodes earlier. The only ones who seem to get some vague story-development seem to be Tendi, who's gradually revealed to be an ex-pirate (though I do not feel that really works with her early naive characterization) and the mystery around Rutherfords implant, which comes from nowhere (and doesn't really have a reason to exist, as Starfleet itself would ask questions about that thing) and probably will lead nowhere.

Ugh, I don't know. This show just does not feel consistent to me and seems to try to chase an impossible audience-expectation, sacrificing stringent development for cheap jokes. There are moments where I laugh, but there are far more moments where the show flat out frustrates me.
"If you get shot up by an A6M Reisen and your plane splits into pieces - does that mean it's divided by Zero?
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Deledrius
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Re: Lower Decks Season 3

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Madner Kami wrote: Sun Oct 23, 2022 8:25 pm I feel that would be the wrong takeaway or resolution.

[...]

I dispute this, because this show has displayed a consistant incapability of making the characters accountable for their actions and, especially and in particular, failings.
I think perhaps you misread that second point, because I'm agreeing with you there. At least, in the point where I expect the status quo to be restored soon, it will negate everything this episode did well. I mentioned that mostly in the context of how that's not what happens in real life in such a situation, but it does undermine the episode. But we haven't seen it yet, so it's impossible to know for sure what direction they'll take it.

It's a comedy where they want to have their cake and eat it, so I'm not expecting better than we've gotten.
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