Star Wars, Highly Illiogical Captain

[GandALF]

Sith are caused by the denial of humanity within the Jedi Code. If "balance" can only be achieved by the absence of emotions, then conflict is pre-programmed. This kind of "Balance" is a false promise as can be clearly seen by all the Jedi constantly failing to the Dark Side. The entire Order is in a constant process of repeated failure, because they are unable to acknowledge basic human needs and thus are incapable of dealing with their very own humanity. As long as that doesn't change, there will always be people exploding out of the confines they are forced into. Thus Sith are naturally "against balance", but they do not cause imbalance, they are the result of the real imbalance and "all" they do is, upset an unnatural order that can not, by it's very definiton, be in balance or equilibrium, as it will always be a forced state of things.

You're right we shouldn't judge Vader for strangling his officers, that's just a basic human need.

[Madner Kami]

That's a cheap way of avoiding the challenge posed and I ignored that attempt once before already. That Vader is evil or that many of Kreia's actions are beyond the moral event horizon, is out of question. What is in question is whether all that could have been avoided by a more human approach at dealing with the Force. That Vader goes around and lightsabers and chokes people to death, is the direct result of the Jedi Order telling him to bottle up his emotions. Just treating him as a human being and comforting him in his angst about his mother and his wife, would've gone a long way in making the world a better place. That is the core of Kreia's teachings.

[GandALF]

That's a cheap way of avoiding the challenge posed and I ignored that attempt once before already. That Vader is evil or that many of Kreia's actions are beyond the moral event horizon, is out of question. What is in question is whether all that could have been avoided by a more human approach at dealing with the Force. That Vader goes around and lightsabers and chokes people to death, is the direct result of the Jedi Order telling him to bottle up his emotions. Just treating him as a human being and comforting him in his angst about his mother and his wife, would've gone a long way in making the world a better place. That is the core of Kreia's teachings.

They didn't teach him to bottle up his emotions they taught him to control his emotions. Again they aren't Vulcans, Obi-Wan got angry all the time but he pulled himself back from the brink. Anakin didn't tell the Jedi about what happened on Tatooine and he was free to leave the Order to marry Padme, but he selfishly didn't want to make any sacrifices. His fall is a result of his lack of self-control.

Kreia certainly wasn't humane or comforting to Tobin or Hanharr and got really pissy about giving 5 credits to starving a refugee.

[Madner Kami]

They didn't teach him to bottle up his emotions they taught him to control his emotions.

Exactly that is what they didn't teach him. He constantly goes off on some random bullshit and nobody really ever grounds him for his behaviour. Consequentially he becomes a cocky, arrogant twat. At best, Obi Wan tells him to tone it down a bit, but that only leads to him becoming even more cocky, because he takes it as banter from a friend, instead of advice from an adult.
Also, as a good example for how the Order never ever actually teaches him how to deal with his emotions: Telling him, that death is a natural thing and that he shouldn't be afraid of it, is incredibly true, but also completely useless to him in his situation and it's even more useless and actually harmful if you consider what happens to his mother and what happens, by consequence, to him.

Again they aren't Vulcans,

There is no emotion, there is peace.
[...]
There is no passion, there is serenity.

They very much are Vulcans. Minus, of course, actually being highly intelligent.

Obi-Wan got angry all the time but he pulled himself back from the brink.

That is one of many reasons for why Obi Wan should have never ever been his Master and the worst part is, that the Council actually knew that. But they ignored it, like they always ignore the most blatently obvious problems. Of course they pair the superpowered Chosen One, who they know is emotionally unstable by Padawan-standards (which is why they originally refused to accept him), with one of the worser students of the Order who was, to top it off, the Padawan of an unconventional Jedi Master. *slowclap*

Anakin didn't tell the Jedi about what happened on Tatooine and he was free to leave the Order to marry Padme, but he selfishly didn't want to make any sacrifices.

Anakin was never free to leave the Order. Anakin was a slave to some master at pretty much every moment of his waking life. He grew up as a slave to Watto, he joined the Order that tried to disconnect him from his mother as hard as they could, forcing him to accept the Order as his new family, all the while treating him as both a red-headed step-child and the Chosen One, which probably lead to some form of Stockholm-syndrome. That only increased his emotional instability, making him emotionally dependent on everyone around him, thus making him a slave to his own emotions, not to mention him being a slave to a vague prophecy and the Force itself, constant manipulation by Palpatine and the Dark Side and so on and on. He never was his own Master.

His fall is a result of his lack of self-control.

No, his fall is a result of the prophecy and noone ever giving him the feeling of being loved, except for two people. One dies in a horrible way and the other rejects him because he becomes an even greater asshole than he already was, thanks to said death and manipulation.

Kreia certainly wasn't humane or comforting to Tobin or Hanharr and got really pissy about giving 5 credits to starving a refugee.

As I said before, I ignored this attempt once, I also humoured it once, I'll go back to ignoring it after these words. Kreia does not need to be a decent human being, to have a point (in fact, she does all that to actually protect you, which is good, isn't it?). She could be the most horrible person in the world and her arguments would still carry weight:

Surik: "Kreia, what are you—are you a Jedi, a Sith?"
Kreia: "Does it matter? Of course it does, such titles allow you to break the galaxy into light and dark, categorize it. Perhaps I am neither, and I hold both as what they are, pieces of a whole. Know that I am your teacher, and that is enough."
Surik: "Then what were you?"
Kreia: "What do you wish to hear? That I once believed in the code of the Jedi? That I felt the call of the Sith, that perhaps, once, I held the galaxy by its throat? That for every good deed I did, I brought equal harm upon the galaxy? That perhaps what the greatest of the Sith Lords knew of evil, they learned from me? What would it matter now? There is only so much comfort in knowing such things, and it is not who I am now."

Atris: "I am Atris, Jedi Master… the last historian of the Jedi… the last of the Jedi."
Kreia: "Those are titles, words you cling to as the darkness falls around you."
Atris: "You are that which has attacked the Jedi… you are Sith."
Kreia: "'Sith' is a title, yes, but like you, the title is not who I am. It is not what I believe. For you… it is different."

Do you think I seek the death of all living things? There is no victory in such things. I do not want to win our war like this, little Jedi. When I win, I wish it to be because I was right, my teachings true.

She's macchiavellian, utilitarian and certainly not the nicest person to be subjected to, but painting her as evil and disregarding what she says on that point alone is short-sighted at best. And as for those 5 credits? You completely missed the point by painting that as a good or evil situation, because
A) She doesn't chastise you for trying to be a good person, she chastises you for not thinking about the consequences.
B) She was perfectly right, as you giving that guy the 5 credits, actually made his life worse.

Also, all you did in that moment as a player, was self-aggrandizing and this is a brilliant and often missed moment of breaking the fourth wall. Nobody actually has anything from the action of choosing to give that beggar 5 credits. All you did, was literally giving yourself a good feeling about yourself. That is what Kreia is trying to teach you.

[Fixer]

Sith are caused by the denial of humanity within the Jedi Code. If "balance" can only be achieved by the absence of emotions, then conflict is pre-programmed. This kind of "Balance" is a false promise as can be clearly seen by all the Jedi constantly failing to the Dark Side. The entire Order is in a constant process of repeated failure, because they are unable to acknowledge basic human needs and thus are incapable of dealing with their very own humanity. As long as that doesn't change, there will always be people exploding out of the confines they are forced into. Thus Sith are naturally "against balance", but they do not cause imbalance, they are the result of the real imbalance and "all" they do is, upset an unnatural order that can not, by it's very definiton, be in balance or equilibrium, as it will always be a forced state of things.

Sith are a bit more complicated than that. There's a difference between a Dark side user, a fallen Jedi and a Sith.

The dark side corrupts and dark side user can quickly become a frenzied berserker becoming lost to it's power, indluging only in narrow personal interest. A Sith sees the power and the passion that fuels it as merely the pathway something greater. That being conquest, or ultimately true freedom as they interpret it. They hoard knowledge and rituals and they are as a group, far more serious threat as a result.

The Sith also have a long term goal of wiping out the Jedi in revenge for their own order's near extinction in the great Hyperspace war.

Of course, their whole philosophy and culture tends towards self destruction once larger external threats are dealt with.

She's macchiavellian, utilitarian and certainly not the nicest person to be subjected to, but painting her as evil and disregarding what she says on that point alone is short-sighted at best. And as for those 5 credits? You completely missed the point by painting that as a good or evil situation, because
A) She doesn't chastise you for trying to be a good person, she chastises you for not thinking about the consequences.
B) She was perfectly right, as you giving that guy the 5 credits, actually made his life worse.

Also, all you did in that moment as a player, was self-aggrandizing and this is a brilliant and often missed moment of breaking the fourth wall. Nobody actually has anything from the action of choosing to give that beggar 5 credits. All you did, was literally giving yourself a good feeling about yourself. That is what Kreia is trying to teach you.

Honestly that part of KOTOR 2 where Kreia discussed how actions have larger consequences than their intentions, and how solving others problems could be interpreted as stealing the trials they needed to overcome to become stronger was when I could tell this story was going to be way more nuanced and thought out than your average Star Wars tale.

[ScreamingDoom]

Kreia certainly wasn't humane or comforting to Tobin or Hanharr and got really pissy about giving 5 credits to starving a refugee.

Kreia is equally disapproving if the player chases that refugee off. It's not about being a dick, it's about the consequences of action. If an action that is "good" leads to a result that makes the target of that good worse off, have you really done them a favor? If you act pointlessly like a dick and that dickishness leads to more suffering, have you really accomplished anything? Kreia's point is that the consequences matter, not the deeds in and of themselves. Doing something just because it makes you feel good about yourself or makes you feel like a big badass is not a useful goal.

Kreia doesn't advocate crushing the pathetic resistance of the refugees for no reason or just sadistic fun; it is simply the easiest, most efficient way to accomplish your goal. Helping the refugees doesn't provide any real benefit -- they'll almost certainly be crushed by some other organized crime branch as soon as the Exile leaves -- and puts the Exile in danger. The whole point of hassling the refugees was to try and draw out any Jedi around. By undermining that, you not only accomplish your main goal, but actively ruin the criminals plan. And all it takes is a few words in the right ears; you don't need to be some big bad Dark Side Sith or some Paragon of the Light. Really, anyone could do what the player does there; the Force isn't needed. Kreia's lesson is that there are ways to accomplish what you want with subtlety, just by paying attention to the consequences of action, without relying on external sources of power.

Kreia is a lot like Jolee Bindo. They're both old and cantankerous and irritated with the extremes of Light and Dark sides. Where Jolee tends towards the Light, Kreia does tend toward the Dark -- this does not make her a Sith, though, any more than Jolee is a Jedi. You can see the leanings in how they react to the realization that both the Jedi and Sith are broken; Jolee sequesters himself alone for decades (Light Side inaction and contemplation) while Kreia makes a plan to destroy the Force (Dark Side passion and call to action). You can also see it in their teaching methods: Jolee goes in for parables and stories while Kreia is more for hands-on education. But the point is that they are both grey.

[GandALF]

There is no emotion, there is peace.
[...]
There is no passion, there is serenity.

They very much are Vulcans. Minus, of course, actually being highly intelligent.

Those are metaphors for internal conflict, the code also says "there is no death" but they still talk about death in a literal sense.

That is one of many reasons for why Obi Wan should have never ever been his Master and the worst part is, that the Council actually knew that. But they ignored it, like they always ignore the most blatently obvious problems. Of course they pair the superpowered Chosen One, who they know is emotionally unstable by Padawan-standards (which is why they originally refused to accept him), with one of the worser students of the Order who was, to top it off, the Padawan of an unconventional Jedi Master. *slowclap*

Surely the guy who has mastered the art of getting angry without committing a massacre is the ideal guy to train Anakin.

Anakin was never free to leave the Order.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lost_Twenty
And that's just 20 masters, padawans probably leave all the time. His own apprentice leaves and Obi-Wan also considered leaving for Satine, another area where he faced the same challenge as Anakin without it resulting in him becoming an asthmatic rageaholic.

making him a slave to his own emotions.

That's exactly what the Sith are and what the Jedi try to avoid becoming. Having emotions, but not being ruled by them.

No, his fall is a result of the prophecy

The prophecy is about balance. The Sith are anti-balance, his fall involves him rejecting his destiny and defying the prophecy, this is alluded to at the end of the Mortis trilogy, and is directly mentioned by Obi-Wan on Mustafar.

and noone ever giving him the feeling of being loved

as banter from a friend

Obi-Wan isn't exactly thrilled about what happens on Mustafar.

Kreia is a lot like Jolee Bindo. They're both old and cantankerous and irritated with the extremes of Light and Dark sides. Where Jolee tends towards the Light, Kreia does tend toward the Dark -- this does not make her a Sith, though, any more than Jolee is a Jedi. You can see the leanings in how they react to the realization that both the Jedi and Sith are broken; Jolee sequesters himself alone for decades (Light Side inaction and contemplation) while Kreia makes a plan to destroy the Force (Dark Side passion and call to action). You can also see it in their teaching methods: Jolee goes in for parables and stories while Kreia is more for hands-on education. But the point is that they are both grey.

Having a few disagreements over doctrine is not equivalent to trying to kill the Force. All of the Jedi are "grey" it's impossible to be 100% on the light side because they can't get rid of their dark sides, they will always feel the temptation, they use their light side to balance out their dark side. While the Sith reject their light side as a weakness or impediment.

[The Romulan Republic]

Kreia certainly wasn't humane or comforting to Tobin or Hanharr and got really pissy about giving 5 credits to starving a refugee.

Kreia is equally disapproving if the player chases that refugee off. It's not about being a dick, it's about the consequences of action. If an action that is "good" leads to a result that makes the target of that good worse off, have you really done them a favor? If you act pointlessly like a dick and that dickishness leads to more suffering, have you really accomplished anything? Kreia's point is that the consequences matter, not the deeds in and of themselves. Doing something just because it makes you feel good about yourself or makes you feel like a big badass is not a useful goal.

Kreia doesn't advocate crushing the pathetic resistance of the refugees for no reason or just sadistic fun; it is simply the easiest, most efficient way to accomplish your goal. Helping the refugees doesn't provide any real benefit -- they'll almost certainly be crushed by some other organized crime branch as soon as the Exile leaves -- and puts the Exile in danger. The whole point of hassling the refugees was to try and draw out any Jedi around. By undermining that, you not only accomplish your main goal, but actively ruin the criminals plan. And all it takes is a few words in the right ears; you don't need to be some big bad Dark Side Sith or some Paragon of the Light. Really, anyone could do what the player does there; the Force isn't needed. Kreia's lesson is that there are ways to accomplish what you want with subtlety, just by paying attention to the consequences of action, without relying on external sources of power.

Kreia is a lot like Jolee Bindo. They're both old and cantankerous and irritated with the extremes of Light and Dark sides. Where Jolee tends towards the Light, Kreia does tend toward the Dark -- this does not make her a Sith, though, any more than Jolee is a Jedi. You can see the leanings in how they react to the realization that both the Jedi and Sith are broken; Jolee sequesters himself alone for decades (Light Side inaction and contemplation) while Kreia makes a plan to destroy the Force (Dark Side passion and call to action). You can also see it in their teaching methods: Jolee goes in for parables and stories while Kreia is more for hands-on education. But the point is that they are both grey.

No, I wouldn't say, from her canonical actions, that Kreia is "grey". She may not be a Sith, but you can be utterly committed to the Dark Side without being a Sith, just as you can be committed to the Light Side without being a Jedi. Jedi and Sith are just specific sects that attempt to follow one side or the other of the Force. They are not synonymous with Light and Dark.

And in my experience, a lot of the "grey Jedi" nonsense, and the false equation of the Light and Dark sides by some fans in Star Wars are a result of people making the fundamental mistake of equating Jedi with Light Side, and then attributing the Prequel Jedi's glaring flaws to the Light Side.

For that matter, I'm not sure how you would even define "grey Jedi" in a meaningful way. Since Jedi are ultimately human (or Twi'lek/Hutt/whatever the hell Yoda is/etc.), they are presumably still capable of making mistakes, so no Jedi, however noble their intentions, will perfectly follow the Light Side. So in that sense, every Jedi is "grey". The darker a shade of grey you get, though, the harder its going to be to keep from being tempted into black, based on how the Force is generally depicted as working in the films at least.

I guess a grey Jedi would be like... Jedi Harry Dresden. Generally opposed to the Dark Side, occasionally using it out of either righteous anger or a belief that its necessary to accomplish something vital, but then being constantly tempted to start using it more and more and more.

And now I kind of want to see Jedi Harry Dresden.

[ScreamingDoom]

No, I wouldn't say, from her canonical actions, that Kreia is "grey". She may not be a Sith, but you can be utterly committed to the Dark Side without being a Sith, just as you can be committed to the Light Side without being a Jedi. Jedi and Sith are just specific sects that attempt to follow one side or the other of the Force. They are not synonymous with Light and Dark.

And in my experience, a lot of the "grey Jedi" nonsense, and the false equation of the Light and Dark sides by some fans in Star Wars are a result of people making the fundamental mistake of equating Jedi with Light Side, and then attributing the Prequel Jedi's glaring flaws to the Light Side.

Okay, so, what is synonymous with Light and Dark, then? If the Jedi and the Sith philosophies aren't exemplars of their prospective Force sides, then how can you define the Light and Dark sides? You can't use something like "pleasure" because Dark Side users are never satisfied nor hedonistic; they never get to be pleased since life is a constant struggle. The Light side can't, either, because they eschew all strong emotions, including pleasure.

For that matter, I'm not sure how you would even define "grey Jedi" in a meaningful way.

Oh, that's pretty easy. It's someone who doesn't ascribe to any particular doctrine, but assigns concrete goals to be achieved. The "concrete" part is important; acquiring power for power's sake is not concrete -- you have to want to do something with that power. Peace and serenity is all good and nice, but it doesn't get things done. The goals themselves and the fundamental means by which those goals are achieved is what provides the shading to the grey.

There's a point in the original KoTOR where a Sith student is giving a quiz to a bunch of hopefuls about what to do if a superior officer ordered them to spare a defeated enemy. He says that they must kill their superior officer, since letting an enemy live is weak and weakness must be purged. It's a knee-jerk reaction caused by the Sith philosophy; there's no thought or choice involved in the action. If the goal is really to make the superior stronger, then killing him isn't going to achieve that (dead people don't get the chance to get stronger). Likewise, murdering a defeated enemy is not necessarily a strong action, either (it might be, depending, but more context is needed to decide). Showing a bit of mercy might get the local population on your side (or, at least, not actively hindering you), reducing the need for personnel and material that could be better used elsewhere. None of this is a consideration in the Sith philosophy, however; it and the Jedi Code are hard doctrines with no flexibility.

Jolee wanted the hunters in the Shadowlands gone. He could've done it himself, but he decided to let the player do it for him as a test of character (two goals at once!). Fundamentally, Jolee didn't care over much how the hunters were removed (he did mention that he didn't want them killed, but beyond a bit of grump, he doesn't care much if you go in and just slaughter them), only that they were gone.

Having concrete goals and going through with the means to accomplish them, whatever those means are, is what makes a Force user grey.

Since Jedi are ultimately human (or Twi'lek/Hutt/whatever the hell Yoda is/etc.), they are presumably still capable of making mistakes, so no Jedi, however noble their intentions, will perfectly follow the Light Side. So in that sense, every Jedi is "grey". The darker a shade of grey you get, though, the harder its going to be to keep from being tempted into black, based on how the Force is generally depicted as working in the films at least.

That's kind of Kreia's point. The consequences matter, not the means. That's why she shows you that giving that guy five credits makes his life actively worse; the player's charity (normally considered a Light side action) had a result that would normally be considered Dark. If your goal was really to make this guy's life better (as opposed to just feeling good about yourself), then you failed spectacularly.

[GandALF]

There's a point in the original KoTOR where a Sith student is giving a quiz to a bunch of hopefuls about what to do if a superior officer ordered them to spare a defeated enemy. He says that they must kill their superior officer, since letting an enemy live is weak and weakness must be purged. It's a knee-jerk reaction caused by the Sith philosophy; there's no thought or choice involved in the action. If the goal is really to make the superior stronger, then killing him isn't going to achieve that (dead people don't get the chance to get stronger). Likewise, murdering a defeated enemy is not necessarily a strong action, either (it might be, depending, but more context is needed to decide). Showing a bit of mercy might get the local population on your side (or, at least, not actively hindering you), reducing the need for personnel and material that could be better used elsewhere. None of this is a consideration in the Sith philosophy

Exactly, its not a moral relativist universe, the Jedi and Sith philosophies are not equally valid. The Sith never achieve freedom, ultimate power or immortality. They are motivated by pleasure, the satisfaction of their base desires, (if a weakling irritates you, kill him and your irritation will be gone), but base desires can only be temporarily satisfied so they end up becoming bestial addicts that leads to their destruction, Palpatine was too busy cackling and getting a kick out of torturing Luke that he didn't notice what Vader was doing. If a Sith did show some self-restraint and was merciful to a population and helped them in order to get them on their side, then they would probably learn that the spiritual happiness they got from helping people lasts longer than material pleasure from dominating them, but their addiction to pleasure blinds their reasoning.

Jolee wanted the hunters in the Shadowlands gone. He could've done it himself, but he decided to let the player do it for him as a test of character (two goals at once!). Fundamentally, Jolee didn't care over much how the hunters were removed (he did mention that he didn't want them killed, but beyond a bit of grump, he doesn't care much if you go in and just slaughter them), only that they were gone.

More likely he was feigning apathy in order to found out the player's plans because he knew the player was Revan, the test was to see if Revan had changed. He's still living an ascetic lifestyle as a hermit, still not anywhere close to the dark side.

That's kind of Kreia's point. The consequences matter, not the means.

Well Kreia's goal is to create a wound and an imbalance in the Force so great that it destroys the Force. The consequence of that at Malachor V was death on an immense scale. If it doesn't kill everyone, then the consequence is creating a solely finite and material world in which no one can find any lasting peace or happiness. So her means, her goal and the consequences of her means and goal are all selfish. She might not think of herself as a Sith but she's definitely not grey.

I think the disconnect is more with Kotor's mechanics, the dark and light sides are roleplaying options they are not actually quick and easy or disciplined and difficult. The player is not actually put under the same pressure as Anakin or Luke where they actually have to control their emotions or deal with temptation, you're just picking things from a menu.