Sfdebris.net

Posted: **Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:07 am**

The more I think about it, the more I gnash my teeth at the wasted potential of the Ferengi in order to fit Roddenberry's need for a straw-man capitalist villain for his utopian universe.

The TNG universe is basically in a state of a cold war between the great powers - or, perhaps more accurately, it is in the inter-war period. It is filled with alliances of convenience, and a lot of nervous non-aligned systems caught in the middle. Nobody's fighting each other outright, but everybody's watching each other carefully and trying to gain an advantage on the sly. Quadrant-wide commerce between the heavily armed rivals could only ever be carried out by a small, neutral party without any substantial military ambitions. No, you can't trust the Ferengi, either, but at least you know your rivals can't trust them, either.

Moreover, that commerce in and of itself should be vital. If every species has a hat, being a race of merchants seems like a really useful hat to wear when you're surrounded by Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians. The only reason a species like the Ferengi should exist is if they're far more useful to their bigger & stronger neighbors than they are a detriment. For all their talk of humanity rising above its violent past, the Federation's peace is still held together by its heavily armed 'exploration vessels'. The Ferengi could have been a great exploration of the non-martial qualities needed for a species to thrive despite lacking the military power to stand against their rivals directly.

But no, the Federation is a post-scarcity utopia, so there's no need for commerce or trade, and anyone who engages in it must be greedy, backstabbing villains. They're not at all like the Federation's courageous ally, the Klingons, who will honorably slaughter your enemy's civilian population for you. That's just Klingons being Klingons; it's not like they're doing something as ridiculous as selling something to you at a profit.

Posted: **Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:55 am**

So we're talking about the season 1 Ferengi, who could conceivably have an empire, as opposed to the DS9 and later Ferengi, who you sometimes wonder if they would be able to tie their shoes without getting into trouble.

Keep in mind, I'm a big fan of the Federation being a post-scarcity Utopia. And I think the Ferengi could work, just as long as you kept the characters multifaceted and like people, not caricatures as they were in their first episode. Or as the dumb cowards that they were in DS9.

Daimon Bok rather worked as a villain, especially in his second/final appearance.

Consider:

PICARD: Tea, Earl Grey, hot.
(Bok is in his chair)
BOK: If you want me to stay and talk, you'd better not call for security this time. How do you like your boy, Captain? Is he everything you'd always hoped for?
PICARD: It's a risky game you're playing, coming here. Next time we'll be ready for you. Why don't we settle this now?
BOK: Oh, and how do you propose to do that, Picard? You murdered my son.
PICARD: It was self-defence. He fired on my ship.
BOK: You were in Ferengi space!
PICARD: I didn't know that. If he'd told me I would have withdrawn. I'm sorry, but there's nothing I can do to bring him back.
BOK: How touching. Your apology is worthless to me. I demand that you repay me for my loss.
PICARD: You cannot put a price on a life.
BOK: Oh, but you can, Picard. You can pay me with your son's life.
PICARD: No.
BOK: You don't have any choice. I insist on being paid.
(Bok beams out)

Such a villain is a bit one note, but shows a rather good angle on capitalism and applying it to vengeance. Also consider Bok's crew has an interesting reaction:

PICARD: Lower your weapons or Bok is dead.
BOK: Lower yours or your son dies.
PICARD: You know as well as I do, Bok, he's not my son. I know what you've done. Miranda Vigo is his mother but I am not his father. You made it appear so because you resequenced his DNA. But your technique was flawed. He developed a neurological disorder. When my ship's Doctor investigated it, she discovered what you had done.
TOL: Now he'll never pay the ransom.
BOK: Shut up.
PICARD: There never was a ransom. All he was ever interested in was vengeance.
TOL: DaiMon, is this true?
PICARD: He's not a DaiMon. He was stripped of command.
BOK: They had no right to do that to me.
PICARD: He lied to you so that you would help him in his plan. The Enterprise is closing in on your position. If you let the two of us go, they won't attack you.
BOK: They won't attack us with you on board.
PICARD: They will cripple your vessel and keep you here until the Ferengi authorities arrive. You've got a lot deal of explaining to do. Your only hope is to turn Bok over to them and tell them that he deceived you.
(Tol disarms Bok)
TOL: There is no profit in this for us.

This, to me, is the Ferengi done right. They're businessmen, cutthroat businessmen, but still businessmen. When finding out that they won't get what they want, they walk away.

It also shows that the Ferengi have acceptable behavior regarding business and unacceptable behavior. A Ferengi pirate is something that Starfleet would occasionally have to deal with. Ferengi being here and there as a force you would have to face, but not an epic threat.

DS9 neutered them completely, to the point where something like this would be inconceivable (yes, I went there) to Ferengi characters on the show. Quark, Rom, and Nog don't have to be cutthroats, as they're in civilian professions, but there should still be the idea that the Ferengi are capable of waging a war or moving muscle if needed. Instead, it seemed like Ferengi only had shuttles, and were incapable of being anything but cowardly buffoons.

A Ferengi mercenary character, like
Eliminator Leck, just as a recurring character would have been interesting occasionally.

Say what you will about TNG, they always tried to have the Ferengi be somewhat of a threat if they were supposed to be one. The Ferengi in DS9 could never be that.

Posted: **Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:12 am**

Starfleet makes Trek trek. It's irrelevant how the Federation economy is managed.

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:55 am So we're talking about the season 1 Ferengi, who could conceivably have an empire, as opposed to the DS9 and later Ferengi, who you sometimes wonder if they would be able to tie their shoes without getting into trouble.

Keep in mind, I'm a big fan of the Federation being a post-scarcity Utopia. And I think the Ferengi could work, just as long as you kept the characters multifaceted and like people, not caricatures as they were in their first episode. Or as the dumb cowards that they were in DS9.

Daimon Bok rather worked as a villain, especially in his second/final appearance.

Consider:

PICARD: Tea, Earl Grey, hot.
(Bok is in his chair)
BOK: If you want me to stay and talk, you'd better not call for security this time. How do you like your boy, Captain? Is he everything you'd always hoped for?
PICARD: It's a risky game you're playing, coming here. Next time we'll be ready for you. Why don't we settle this now?
BOK: Oh, and how do you propose to do that, Picard? You murdered my son.
PICARD: It was self-defence. He fired on my ship.
BOK: You were in Ferengi space!
PICARD: I didn't know that. If he'd told me I would have withdrawn. I'm sorry, but there's nothing I can do to bring him back.
BOK: How touching. Your apology is worthless to me. I demand that you repay me for my loss.
PICARD: You cannot put a price on a life.
BOK: Oh, but you can, Picard. You can pay me with your son's life.
PICARD: No.
BOK: You don't have any choice. I insist on being paid.
(Bok beams out)
Such a villain is a bit one note, but shows a rather good angle on capitalism and applying it to vengeance. Also consider Bok's crew has an interesting reaction:

PICARD: Lower your weapons or Bok is dead.
BOK: Lower yours or your son dies.
PICARD: You know as well as I do, Bok, he's not my son. I know what you've done. Miranda Vigo is his mother but I am not his father. You made it appear so because you resequenced his DNA. But your technique was flawed. He developed a neurological disorder. When my ship's Doctor investigated it, she discovered what you had done.
TOL: Now he'll never pay the ransom.
BOK: Shut up.
PICARD: There never was a ransom. All he was ever interested in was vengeance.
TOL: DaiMon, is this true?
PICARD: He's not a DaiMon. He was stripped of command.
BOK: They had no right to do that to me.
PICARD: He lied to you so that you would help him in his plan. The Enterprise is closing in on your position. If you let the two of us go, they won't attack you.
BOK: They won't attack us with you on board.
PICARD: They will cripple your vessel and keep you here until the Ferengi authorities arrive. You've got a lot deal of explaining to do. Your only hope is to turn Bok over to them and tell them that he deceived you.
(Tol disarms Bok)
TOL: There is no profit in this for us.
This, to me, is the Ferengi done right. They're businessmen, cutthroat businessmen, but still businessmen. When finding out that they won't get what they want, they walk away.

It also shows that the Ferengi have acceptable behavior regarding business and unacceptable behavior. A Ferengi pirate is something that Starfleet would occasionally have to deal with. Ferengi being here and there as a force you would have to face, but not an epic threat.

DS9 neutered them completely, to the point where something like this would be inconceivable (yes, I went there) to Ferengi characters on the show. Quark, Rom, and Nog don't have to be cutthroats, as they're in civilian professions, but there should still be the idea that the Ferengi are capable of waging a war or moving muscle if needed. Instead, it seemed like Ferengi only had shuttles, and were incapable of being anything but cowardly buffoons.

A Ferengi mercenary character, like
Eliminator Leck, just as a recurring character would have been interesting occasionally.

Say what you will about TNG, they always tried to have the Ferengi be somewhat of a threat if they were supposed to be one. The Ferengi in DS9 could never be that.

Ferengi don't work because they are so greedy they can never pose a real threat to anyone.

Posted: **Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:08 pm**

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:55 am This, to me, is the Ferengi done right. They're businessmen, cutthroat businessmen, but still businessmen. When finding out that they won't get what they want, they walk away.

It also shows that the Ferengi have acceptable behavior regarding business and unacceptable behavior. A Ferengi pirate is something that Starfleet would occasionally have to deal with. Ferengi being here and there as a force you would have to face, but not an epic threat.

DS9 neutered them completely, to the point where something like this would be inconceivable (yes, I went there) to Ferengi characters on the show. Quark, Rom, and Nog don't have to be cutthroats, as they're in civilian professions, but there should still be the idea that the Ferengi are capable of waging a war or moving muscle if needed. Instead, it seemed like Ferengi only had shuttles, and were incapable of being anything but cowardly buffoons.

I like that characterization - not just because it makes them a legitimate threat, but it adds verisimilitude towards their entire culture. It's not just about them being cutthroat or posing a legitimate challenge to the main cast - it's also about there being substance to the Ferengi culture beyond just giving something for the Federation to mock and feel superior to.

Agent Vinod wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:12 am Ferengi don't work because they are so greedy they can never pose a real threat to anyone.

That's kind of the entire point I'm making. Their entire portrayal is such a one-dimensional caricature that it makes no sense within the universe. The Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans are all varying degrees of awful, but we can believe in their existence as powerful empires which survive on their martial prowess; the Ferengi do not. Yet, despite being universally despised, they show up everywhere, and thrive despite only barely being tolerated. For this to happen, they need to be able to provide some tangible benefit to the other races to merit them being tolerated rather than obliterated.

Instead, we're shown a race and culture with no redeeming qualities and no reason for existence. They're a straw man meant to be despised, whose only purpose is to show off the superiority of our protagonists. If they were to be given any depth, any reason to show how the Rules of Acquisition could work as the basis for a culture, then they would no longer be useful as a hate sink.

Posted: **Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:11 pm**

The problem with this attitude is that, again, Roddenberry envisioned a post-scarity society.

It probably should still have money but in a world where you can get a 100 room mansion replicated in a few hours, there's really no need for corporations.

The Ferengi's influence would be on worlds which were either Pre-Warp or far below the Federation.

Posted: **Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:13 pm**

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:11 pm The problem with this attitude is that, again, Roddenberry envisioned a post-scarity society.

It probably should still have money but in a world where you can get a 100 room mansion replicated in a few hours, there's really no need for corporations.

There is no need for them now but humans gonna human.

Posted: **Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:15 pm**

Agent Vinod wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:13 pm
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:11 pm The problem with this attitude is that, again, Roddenberry envisioned a post-scarity society.

It probably should still have money but in a world where you can get a 100 room mansion replicated in a few hours, there's really no need for corporations.

There is no need for them now but humans gonna human.

The only problem with corporations is people keep acting like they're people. Tax them, remove any special rights they have, and sue the people involved versus the company and the world will be a much better place.

Posted: **Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:16 pm**

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:15 pm
Agent Vinod wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:13 pm
CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:11 pm The problem with this attitude is that, again, Roddenberry envisioned a post-scarity society.

It probably should still have money but in a world where you can get a 100 room mansion replicated in a few hours, there's really no need for corporations.

There is no need for them now but humans gonna human.
The only problem with corporations is people keep acting like they're people. Tax them, remove any special rights they have, and sue the people involved versus the company and the world will be a much better place.

The people doing will also be assholes.

Posted: **Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:18 pm**

Mind you, the Ferengi are a poor poor work on capitalism.

They're a fun race but how do you do a critique of capitalism with no corporations?

Posted: **Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:11 am**

Howzabout this... The Ferengi aren't bound by the Prime Directive. They can offer technologies to worlds, nation-states on those worlds, or just leaders of those nation-states, in exchange for the natives service as military personnel or sales staff.

Imagine a Damon dropping in on Putin and offering phaser cannon in exchange for a couple thousand Russians "volunteers" to staff Ferengi Marauders. And if Putin used those cannon to subjugate Earth, you now have a planet that really wants to stay on good terms with the Ferengi, and no particular reason to be on friendly terms with the United Federation of Planets.

"The Ferengi helped us take over the world, cured several forms of cancer, gave us clean, cheap fusion in exchange for a base on Earth. What do you offer us, Captain Picard?"

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