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So I was going over Episodes of DS9 and I came across the episode The Collaborator where it's revealed, Spoilers, that Bareil had Collaborated with the Cardassians during the Occupation thus revealing that the Religious man's dark past and that he wasn't the Paragon he was built up as (Edit: that's a mistake on by part he actually wasn't a Collaborator but was covering for someone else who was a Collaborator. My Bad). And this isn't the only time this happens in the show as we meet several characters who appear to be trustworthy only for it to later to be revealed that they either have a dark past or are actually the bad guys, the Founders, Eris in the episode The Jem'Hadar and Admiral Leyton in Paradise Lost.

Even the main cast is guilty of this as I don't think there was a single cast member who didn't have a dark and troubled past or was hiding some dark secret that revealed that they had either A) Been involved in the death of someone or B) was some how altered making at some point. They were even going to do this with O'Brien where it would be revealed that he was actually a Cardassian Spy who had his mind wiped.

I'm pretty sure that the only characters who didn't have any sort of dark past was Rom, Leeta & Morn and even then I could be wrong. And that's just he tip of the Iceberg as we also had bits like Sisko poisoning a planet just to get at one guy he had a grudge against, Basher's father going to jail for genetically altering his son and the aforementioned Bareil being revealed to have collaborated with the Cardassians.

Now I don't hate any this ideas as many of them led to great character moments and some really fantastic episodes but the question still remains, was DS9 too dark? Just to compare and contrast The Empire Strikes Back is the Darkest of the Star Wars films and did reveal that Vader was Luke's Father, Lando turns on his friends which resulted in Han getting Tortured and Luke learned that he may not have what it takes to be a Jedi and that was before the big reveal.

Yet it still made time for a fun Romance between Han and Leia, a bit of humor with the side characters, (yet never going to far with that comedy, looking at you The Last Jedi) and had many other lighthearted moments throughout the film.

Or to use another example the tie in comics to the newest incarnation of Tomb Raider which has the two leads, Lara and Sam, trying to coup with their PTSD, Lara still having nightmares about the people she lost and Sam being forced to kill against her will when she learns that there is a Crazy Demigod dwelling within her.

But again, the comics still had time to have a few lighthearted moments with silly things like Lara appearing in a play, Sam buying cupcakes for Lara and just the two being dorks who love history and showing why Sam Really needs to come back to the series and just have Jonah leave the series.

I love both Empire, TR and DS9 but I do wonder if the latter took the darker elements to far at times. As Linkara said, you need lighthearted moments in between the darker moments or otherwise you're just mired in depression. Thoughts?

Yes, I think that was the point, though it sometimes goes too far and is dark for the sake of being dark. Take Kira being so hard-line against "comfort women" in "Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night." And the insensitive way the episode handles it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Yukaphile wrote: ↑Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:14 am Yes, I think that was the point, though it sometimes goes too far and is dark for the sake of being dark. Take Kira being so hard-line against "comfort women" in "Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night." And the insensitive way the episode handles it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I'm reminded of something Chuck said in his Video on Why Doctor Who was Cancelled when talking about John Nathan-Turner and how a little fear can be a good thing. How JNT kept trying new things until it led to him wanting the Doctor to dress as silly as possible which resulted in the Doctor wearing the Ugliest Coat ever made that eventually led to the show getting cancelled.

Not quite the same thing but I do think that DS9 needed more lighthearted moments, (that were compliantly done looking at you Let He Who is Without Sin) I think it would have helped the series out quite a bit.

I have two answers - mine, and for Trek fandom in general. For me, it wasn't too dark. Most of the time the characters weren't concentrating on all the misfortunes that had befallen them in the past, they were working together to solve the problem of the week. I saw lighter moments with Quark, Rom, and the relationship between Ben and Jake Sisko.

For Trek fandom in general... maybe. I can't point to anything solid, but the impression I got was that fans very often liked DS9 or liked the other Trek shows, so I think there was some difference in tone there. I don't know if that was overall darkness, the seeing the less-than-utopian underbelly of the Federation, or the lack of exploration.

Still...
"Hey, batter, batter, batter, batter, batter."
"Hey, batter, batter, batter, batter, batter, batter, batter."
"Death to the opposition!"

Nah, DS9, if anything, was too real. There are a lot of people that watch Star Trek for pure escapism; this is not the show for them. Then again, compared with modern grimdark TV, DS9 is positively teeming with optimism!

Spoilers, that Bareil had Collaborated with the Cardassians during the Occupation thus revealing that the Religious man's dark past and that he wasn't the Paragon he was built up as.

But Bareil was the paragon he was built up as, and even more so for being willing to shoulder the blame for the dearly departed Kai. Poor guy kept working through brain failure just to pull together a treaty printed on tissue paper.

And even despite the overall tone, DS9 still had plenty of levity - baseball, jazz, weddings... and though they missed the mark with most of the Ferengi episodes, they at least were *intended* to be funny

Honestly, I think DS9 up until about Season 6 onward was the best. It seemed to combine the best elements of light and dark together. After that, however, it got too dark. It needed more levity. I get it, I really do. It's a war story, but still... I think what others have said are the reason it felt bad. It's that Wolfe left.

Personally I liked the way it challenged the Roddenberry box.

Admiral X wrote: ↑Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:31 am Personally I liked the way it challenged the Roddenberry box.

No argument, as I said, I personally feel that many of the dark twist the series took led to some truly great stories and character moments. I just wonder if the show took it to far in that direction where everyone is revealed to have a dark past or is hiding a dark secret.

It's pretty much the flip side of Season 4 of The Flash. I personally enjoyed it and thought it was hilarious but I do think it was a little too lighthearted and the ending result is that it took the wind out of many of the seasons Darker moments.

The Flash is the more lighthearted Series of the Arrowverse, (or at least it's suppose to be) but Season 4 is a little to goofy and lighthearted and that often under cuts the drama. Same thing with DS9, it's so dark and so grim at times that it often hard for me to care about what happens next.

The characters are strong enough to keep me coming back but like I said they all seem to have a dark past that I'm honestly surprised that no one ever comment on it in the actual show.

Sometimes it got a bit too dark, yeah. Which is ironic given that I liked "In the Pale Moonlight." But making Sisko a rape baby and never commenting on it, or presenting "comfort women" aka war rape victims as complicit collaborators? No. Just... was awful.

I don't think DS9 was too dark. What matters is whether going dark makes sense for your story. For DS9 it did, because of the subject matter and because the series was acting as a counterpoint to Roddenberry's utopian vision.

The problem with the grimdark that dominates tv today is that absolutely everyone is doing it, regardless of source material and whether it makes sense for your story. It makes for an easy substitute for good drama, and you could even argue that this constant obsession with darkness and depression is unhealthy for audiences (although you could just as easily argue it simply reflects the current mood of culture at large).

To put it more succinctly- DS9 and nu-BSG (which basically took DS9's darkest ideas and made a whole series out of them) are two of my favorite shows, and I have no problem with their tone. But I don't want every show to have that tone.