HOLY SHIT THE VORLONS JUST BLEW UP A PLANET.
So... I'm gonna create this thread here. Vorlons vs. Galactic Empire. Who wins?!
Vorlons vs. Galactic Empire
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Yukaphile
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Vorlons vs. Galactic Empire
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
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Jonathan101
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Re: Vorlons vs. Galactic Empire
Well, the Vorlons are far more advanced than the Galactic Empire, but the Empire I assume is more advanced and militarily powerful than most of the younger races in B5.
The Empire also has a huge, huge numerical advantage, being the dominant superpower in their galaxy with over a million systems under their control (and that's probably just counting the inhabited ones), while the Vorlons as I understand it are actually a dwindling if still-powerful race who only occupy a (relatively) small sector of the Milky Way.
The Vorlons also operate in greater secrecy, so that could be a problem. The Empire has proven itself vulnerable to losing it's heads, so if they take out Palpatine and Vader that could be a serious blow (those two are probably amongst the few in the Empire who could pose a legitimate threat in personal or telepathic combat to the Vorlons as well, but that just means the Vorlons have double the reason to kill them).
Really depends on the goals I think. If it's a full-on war of attrition where both sides are out to annihilate each other, the empire might take it with some difficulty, but if it's just the Vorlons out to score a win then they could do it as long as they take a stealthy approach.
I think circumstances and knowledge would be crucial factors in a fight like this.
The Empire also has a huge, huge numerical advantage, being the dominant superpower in their galaxy with over a million systems under their control (and that's probably just counting the inhabited ones), while the Vorlons as I understand it are actually a dwindling if still-powerful race who only occupy a (relatively) small sector of the Milky Way.
The Vorlons also operate in greater secrecy, so that could be a problem. The Empire has proven itself vulnerable to losing it's heads, so if they take out Palpatine and Vader that could be a serious blow (those two are probably amongst the few in the Empire who could pose a legitimate threat in personal or telepathic combat to the Vorlons as well, but that just means the Vorlons have double the reason to kill them).
Really depends on the goals I think. If it's a full-on war of attrition where both sides are out to annihilate each other, the empire might take it with some difficulty, but if it's just the Vorlons out to score a win then they could do it as long as they take a stealthy approach.
I think circumstances and knowledge would be crucial factors in a fight like this.
Re: Vorlons vs. Galactic Empire
Empire versus Rebels = Evil v Good
Vorlon v Shadow = Law v Chaos
Light force v Dark force.
Vorlons love Order and side with Empire
Empire gets eviller and eviller, Vorlons continue to support Empire
Empire takes a millimeter step towards Dark side, Vorlons genocide Empire.
Vorlon v Shadow = Law v Chaos
Light force v Dark force.
Vorlons love Order and side with Empire
Empire gets eviller and eviller, Vorlons continue to support Empire
Empire takes a millimeter step towards Dark side, Vorlons genocide Empire.
Self sealing stem bolts don't just seal themselves, you know.
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Yukaphile
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Re: Vorlons vs. Galactic Empire
I dunno. The Vorlons blew up planets easily in B5. Many of them. The Empire has the Death Star, but only one at a given time. As for their superweapons, they also never seemed to have them all at any given time. This would mean they have the Death Star, Executor, 25,000 Star Destroyers, and millions of smaller vessels. I agree the numbers go to them, as does speed, maybe. Though... it seems the Vorlons have many such planet killers, and not just one, but that could be a mistaken impression. I think if the Empire at its peak had all its superweapons, they'd win, the Galaxy Gun, the Sun Crusher, the World Devastators, etc, etc...
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
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Jonathan101
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Re: Vorlons vs. Galactic Empire
Basically, the Empire should wipe the floor with most / all of the Younger Races, which collectively were able to defeat the Shadows albeit with help and difficulty, and the Shadows had stalemated the Vorlons although were probably somewhat weaker than them.
Vorlons > Shadows > Empire > Younger Races, it seems.
Again, circumstances and knowledge would matter here.
Vorlons having planet killing spaceships might not be a huge deal, depending on how durable the ships themselves are- they might be glass cannons that pack a massive punch but would be no match against a Star Destroyer in an actual fight, like a bomber w/ a nuke vs a fighter jet, and if the Imperial ships are all faster then the Empire might be able to work it out. I'm not a big B5 guy so I don't know how often they actually engaged in such battles though.
The bigger issue might be that the Vorlon Empire has defences around it that has destroyed all of the ships ever sent into it by the Younger Races, so the question would be whether or not Star Destroyers are formidable enough to be an exception.
This is the kind of war you need Thrawn for, methinks.
Vorlons > Shadows > Empire > Younger Races, it seems.
Again, circumstances and knowledge would matter here.
Vorlons having planet killing spaceships might not be a huge deal, depending on how durable the ships themselves are- they might be glass cannons that pack a massive punch but would be no match against a Star Destroyer in an actual fight, like a bomber w/ a nuke vs a fighter jet, and if the Imperial ships are all faster then the Empire might be able to work it out. I'm not a big B5 guy so I don't know how often they actually engaged in such battles though.
The bigger issue might be that the Vorlon Empire has defences around it that has destroyed all of the ships ever sent into it by the Younger Races, so the question would be whether or not Star Destroyers are formidable enough to be an exception.
This is the kind of war you need Thrawn for, methinks.
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Yukaphile
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Re: Vorlons vs. Galactic Empire
Well, I read somewhere the Vorlons got concerned about an alien race with shields? If that's the case, I can't see them beating the Empire. I mean, they not only have shields, but planetary shields that can for a fraction of a second withstand the Death Star's blast. Even their planet killers wouldn't work.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
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Karha of Honor
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Yukaphile
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Re: Vorlons vs. Galactic Empire
Legends. And I'd say at their peak, when Palpatine was still alive.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
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MissKittyFantastico
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Re: Vorlons vs. Galactic Empire
Disclosure: I may have forgotten a bunch of details from the B5 movies and spin-off series, and I never got into the EU, so I'm basing my thoughts on just on the broad strokes of main canon here. Also, Yuka, if you haven't gotten to the end of the Shadow/Vorlon thing, you may want to skip this.
Thing with the Vorlons is I feel we never saw them on a war footing. Militarily maybe they were roughly equal to the kind of force the Shadows showed (or a bit ahead, but you could argue that was a difference in design philosophy rather than the military potential of the raw tech base at their command) but the Vorlons and the Shadows never warred against each other. Okay yes, that one time Kosh sent a few ships to rumble a few Shadows to make a point, but I'd argue in conflict terms what was happening there was equivalent to a couple of mobs with an informal truce, one day one of Carlos's guys gets talked into whacking one of Tony's guys, Tony sends a few people to rob Carlos's uncle's deli in retaliation, everyone's a bit pissed off but they basically decide both sides have had their pound of flesh, and they go back to status quo. Carlos and Tony aren't building B52s and carpet bombing each others countries, is the thing. Even when they both started obliterating planets, that wasn't dropping the A-Bomb on the enemy capital city, that was sending a few guys to toss Molotovs through the window of any business paying the other mob protection money.
Point is the Vorlons never (that we saw, at least) faced an equal foe that wanted them dead, never had to engage in an arms race, or get every last ounce of fighting power out of what they had because it was their glory ethereal asses on the line. None of their ships were "make this as hardass as possible because it's the last line of defence for the homeworld" - they just needed something to fly around in and intimidate any lesser species that got uppity. We don't even know that the planet-killer was an 'ultimate weapon' by Vorlon standards, just that they decided they needed to blow some planets up to get their point across properly - from Vorlon engineering standards it might've been as sophisticated as the Top Gear boys welding an outboard to a Toyota to cross the channel, so long as it works (which it did until Sheridan called on the other First Ones, who had actual weapons, not the bows and arrows everyone else was using) who cares?
So it's difficult to make a call, but my feeling is based on the warfighting capability they showed and how determined they were to pursue military superiority when they did it, if the Vorlon fleet we saw in B5 couldn't eat Star Destroyers for breakfast already, that's only because the Vorlons were totally complacent with the tech advantage they enjoyed over the lessers. If thanks to shields or whatever Star Destroyers can meet Vorlon 'warships' on equal terms then maybe the Empire has a chance, if they can just come in like a steamroller on nitrous and deliver crushing defeat after crushing defeat, no matter the attritional damage they'd take in the process, and push on to the Vorlon homeworld and glass it before the Vorlons have had a chance to catch their breaths and tech their way out of the problem. But given how Vorlons operate, that's a long shot - they're secretive, manipulative, and from what little we know about their homeworld I feel like there's a strong chance it's a lot more of a fortress than their 'war fleet' would suggest. Even if the Empire knows when and where to hit them - and they can come at the Vorlons with no grace period, so the Vorlons don't have time to sidle into the galaxy's political structure and destabilise the Empire politically (remember the only reason Sheridan was able to put together the coalition that stood against the Vorlons is that the Vorlons wanted him to - they just didn't figure on him using it against them) - I feel like at some point the Vorlons are going to hand the Empire a setback, or bushwhack their supporting infrastructure, or something that draws the war to a standstill, and once they've had a chance to fort up and build some new ships, the Vorlons are going to be cutting Star Destroyers in half like Naare on spring break.
If the scenario is that the Vorlons are in the Star Wars galaxy long enough to start playing the Great Game the way they like, rather than just popping up out of nowhere and having to fight it out with lasers, then I'd say the Empire is proper screwed. The Sith seem more like the kind of people the Shadows would get on board with - emotion-driven, tribalistic, thundering dumbasses - with the Vorlons setting themselves up as mystic advisors to the Jedi or something, but if the Vorlons are the only game in town, I feel like they'd handle Palpatine and his ilk easily enough.
Thing with the Vorlons is I feel we never saw them on a war footing. Militarily maybe they were roughly equal to the kind of force the Shadows showed (or a bit ahead, but you could argue that was a difference in design philosophy rather than the military potential of the raw tech base at their command) but the Vorlons and the Shadows never warred against each other. Okay yes, that one time Kosh sent a few ships to rumble a few Shadows to make a point, but I'd argue in conflict terms what was happening there was equivalent to a couple of mobs with an informal truce, one day one of Carlos's guys gets talked into whacking one of Tony's guys, Tony sends a few people to rob Carlos's uncle's deli in retaliation, everyone's a bit pissed off but they basically decide both sides have had their pound of flesh, and they go back to status quo. Carlos and Tony aren't building B52s and carpet bombing each others countries, is the thing. Even when they both started obliterating planets, that wasn't dropping the A-Bomb on the enemy capital city, that was sending a few guys to toss Molotovs through the window of any business paying the other mob protection money.
Point is the Vorlons never (that we saw, at least) faced an equal foe that wanted them dead, never had to engage in an arms race, or get every last ounce of fighting power out of what they had because it was their glory ethereal asses on the line. None of their ships were "make this as hardass as possible because it's the last line of defence for the homeworld" - they just needed something to fly around in and intimidate any lesser species that got uppity. We don't even know that the planet-killer was an 'ultimate weapon' by Vorlon standards, just that they decided they needed to blow some planets up to get their point across properly - from Vorlon engineering standards it might've been as sophisticated as the Top Gear boys welding an outboard to a Toyota to cross the channel, so long as it works (which it did until Sheridan called on the other First Ones, who had actual weapons, not the bows and arrows everyone else was using) who cares?
So it's difficult to make a call, but my feeling is based on the warfighting capability they showed and how determined they were to pursue military superiority when they did it, if the Vorlon fleet we saw in B5 couldn't eat Star Destroyers for breakfast already, that's only because the Vorlons were totally complacent with the tech advantage they enjoyed over the lessers. If thanks to shields or whatever Star Destroyers can meet Vorlon 'warships' on equal terms then maybe the Empire has a chance, if they can just come in like a steamroller on nitrous and deliver crushing defeat after crushing defeat, no matter the attritional damage they'd take in the process, and push on to the Vorlon homeworld and glass it before the Vorlons have had a chance to catch their breaths and tech their way out of the problem. But given how Vorlons operate, that's a long shot - they're secretive, manipulative, and from what little we know about their homeworld I feel like there's a strong chance it's a lot more of a fortress than their 'war fleet' would suggest. Even if the Empire knows when and where to hit them - and they can come at the Vorlons with no grace period, so the Vorlons don't have time to sidle into the galaxy's political structure and destabilise the Empire politically (remember the only reason Sheridan was able to put together the coalition that stood against the Vorlons is that the Vorlons wanted him to - they just didn't figure on him using it against them) - I feel like at some point the Vorlons are going to hand the Empire a setback, or bushwhack their supporting infrastructure, or something that draws the war to a standstill, and once they've had a chance to fort up and build some new ships, the Vorlons are going to be cutting Star Destroyers in half like Naare on spring break.
If the scenario is that the Vorlons are in the Star Wars galaxy long enough to start playing the Great Game the way they like, rather than just popping up out of nowhere and having to fight it out with lasers, then I'd say the Empire is proper screwed. The Sith seem more like the kind of people the Shadows would get on board with - emotion-driven, tribalistic, thundering dumbasses - with the Vorlons setting themselves up as mystic advisors to the Jedi or something, but if the Vorlons are the only game in town, I feel like they'd handle Palpatine and his ilk easily enough.
