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I know a lot of people think that Voyager handled the borg exceptionally if not perfectly. But I was thinking about all the later episodes where we unpack the Borg culture with all these characters and stories (like Unimatrix Zero). While the Borg were obviously still a threat, I feel maybe that Voyager exposed them a bit losing their mystique a bit.

That make sense to anyone?

The problem really began in First Contact. Something as vast and alien to comprehend as a species that is of one mind on everything, a race of trillions who all agree on the same thing, and that that gives them strength and an advantage over other species, was just too intelligent for the show. And it's so ironic that it's Moore who gave us the Queen. But then Braga was also involved, so we'll call that a wash. They really just wanted to capitalize on how popular the Borg were, but didn't wanna put in all the, tch, F word (effort, huargh!) it would require to write sufficiently well for them, and so gave them a leader figure to serve as their voice. I think that's what makes "Scorpion" stand out so much, in that it's arguably superior to First Contact. No foolish Queen. Just two alien races, incomprehensible to one another, working together, one speaking with a singular chorus of a trillion trillion trillion voices, the other as disjointed individuals. After that, the Queen came back, and... look, the one that stands out the most to me is the "Dr. Evil Plot" from the end of Dark Frontier. The Borg Queen trying to bring Seven back makes sense, to learn about individuality. Even the glaring error that "You are the only Borg who has ever returned to a state of individuality." But then the Queen describes how awful humans are and wants to assimilate them anyway. And insists they need to... send a probe into their space to spread a virus on Earth. Why? That makes Earth into the center of the damn universe, which it was never meant to be, on TOS or TNG or DS9. It also reveals a startling lack of intelligence on the Borg's part in that if you really wanna succeed where you failed last time... maybe send more than one ship this time? Just saying. It felt rushed. The drama that had worked earlier was sabotaged by such a weak, limp-wristed ending. And "Unimatrix Zero?" Nuff said.

A lot of it came off as them nerfing the Borg in order to make it so Voyager would even stand a chance, to the point where it came off as easy for them even when they were fighting a ship that was supposed to be way stronger than the one that invaded the Federation and took out an entire fleet of ships. And it was all part of the plan for their captain, chief engineer, and chief security/tactical officer to get assimilated on purpose. Also the odd focus on humanity in particular out of the entire Federation made no real sense to me.

Overuse, pure and simple. You can't have every battle be a Wolf 359 and every time you have anything less more and more of their menace is gone. I don't think the problem did start with Voyager, I think it started with Hugh. Much of Dr Who's main pantheon of enemies have suffered from this, particularly the pepper pots of doom.

I can't speak to the Daleks (I am just about to finish Season 2 of Classic Who), but I'd contest that it began with Hugh. Hugh's story was still gripping and engaging... unless you mean "Descent," in which case, okay, I can agree with that. "I Borg" was pure genius though.

clearspira wrote: ↑Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:22 pm Overuse, pure and simple. You can't have every battle be a Wolf 359 and every time you have anything less more and more of their menace is gone. I don't think the problem did start with Voyager, I think it started with Hugh. Much of Dr Who's main pantheon of enemies have suffered from this, particularly the pepper pots of doom.

I think that TNG episode's consistent with what I was saying about all the characters in Voyager, though I'm not sure how that serves to, say, nerf the Borg though. By itself I'd think it's fine since it doesn't establish multiple subcultures like with Unimatrix Zero (though that actually might be an isolated incident as well). Wait what about that one where they all turn human temporarily in what looked like a camping trip or something, is that the same incident that is Unimatrix Zero?

IMO, the Borg are best like locusts or a virus. They don't have a home territory or culture. They just eat and reproduce/assimilate. (Didn't Stargate have something similar---the Ori? or whoever it was that culled the humans)

Painted into a corner by the plot points in First Contact? Ok fine, then have each multiple Borg swarms and each swarm has its own Borg Queen and she is the anthropomorphic embodiment of the Borg's "culture." And each Queen is the genetic descendant of the original humanoid mad scientist who created the first Borg.

a missed opportunity would've been have VOY stumble across the abandoned remains of the Borg homeworld. At Borg Prime they find old archives and Plot Point-MacGuffin that could help end the Borg menace without Piccard's pesky morals.

technobabbler wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:43 am IMO, the Borg are best like locusts or a virus. They don't have a home territory or culture. They just eat and reproduce/assimilate. (Didn't Stargate have something similar---the Ori? or whoever it was that culled the humans)

Painted into a corner by the plot points in First Contact? Ok fine, then have each multiple Borg swarms and each swarm has its own Borg Queen and she is the anthropomorphic embodiment of the Borg's "culture."

a missed opportunity would've been have VOY stumble across the remains of the Borg homeworld. At Borg Prime they find old archives and Plot Point-MacGuffin that could help end the Borg menace without Piccard's pesky morals.

Nobody's really touching on this, and I think I mentioned it once, but I sorta feel like considering that the Borg only did the whole queen thing and developed a fixation on Earth after their failed attempts to procure Picard. I'm really tempted to go over the TNG Borg episodes to wrap my head around why they wanted him in the first place, but his whole will to abduct himself seems like something that might have effected a change in their operation.

Also, dashing idea of yours if I say so myself. I'm going out on a limb here, but that could be quite the respectful nod to the beginning of Wrath of Khan. Really though in that fashion I'd guess to make it more of a Pandora's box or something, but I'm not sure how it should play out through the series. Could make for an intense last two seasons or something.

My headcanon is that Hugh coming back broke them. Lore's faction stayed outside the collective while the new "Queen" hierarchy was set up to provide new order, which explains why they got steadily more insane as the years went by. It was also only meant to be ONE Queen (hence her comments in First Contact, "You imply disparity where none exists, I AM the Borg"), but as the Borg kept destabilizing, more Queens popped up like those annoying pop-up ads until the Borg just couldn't take it. In their own way, sending back Hugh did the same kind of damage Admiral Uptight Bitch had wanted. So hooray!

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:00 am

technobabbler wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:43 am IMO, the Borg are best like locusts or a virus. At Borg Prime they find old archives and Plot Point-MacGuffin that could help end the Borg menace without Piccard's pesky morals.

. Really though in that fashion I'd guess to make it more of a Pandora's box or something, but I'm not sure how it should play out through the series. Could make for an intense last two seasons or something.

Could be a season long arc.

One episode: crew finds Pandora's Box. Janeway + staff rehash Piccard's Hugh moral quandry about what are the Borg---vermin or a culture. But this time Psycho Janeway shows Piccard what real ovaries can do.

But....fresh-out-of-the-academy/idealistic Harry Kim grows his Roddenberries and tells Janeway straight up that she is wrong and leads his insurrection. Harry gets Tom Paris and a few sympathetic extras to mutiny to sabotage the MacGuffin. Drama ensues.

Irony: Janeway gets the upper hand, but Borg Queen already patched the security vulnerability 200 years ago and teases Janeway for her efforts and gives Janeway a "Piccard Speech" about the smugness of humans. Womp womp. And both Harry and Janeway get proven right and wrong.