Any correlation between Kylo Ren in canon and Jacen Solo in Legends?

[Yukaphile]

Specifically, in one area. That Jacen Solo falls to the dark side and murders Luke's wife, and in Disney canon Luke wanted to murder Kylo Ren before he "became a threat" and ended up turning him into said threat. It's almost as if they were grafting Legends elements into the movie. Like, "That little shit should die for what he did to Mara Jade!"

[Yukaphile]

Like maybe they thought Luke should have done that in Legends or something.

[Winter]

If Disney was trying to graft Legends elements into the Star Wars New 52 then they didn't do a good job of it IMO. In Legends Jacen falls to the dark side was ultimately driven by his desire to keep his daughter from falling to the dark side, damn the rest of the galaxy and his own soul he would keep his daughter safe no matter the cost. With Kylo he seems to have become evil because Luke tried to kill him and then wanted to take over the galaxy.

With the former, as poorly written as Legacy of the Force is, that motive made sense from both a narattive stand point as family is a major theme of SW and a plot stand point as everything Jacen tries fails to stop the future he sees so he just keeps doing more and more terrible things until it snowballed out of his control and in the end he killed his own aunt which is where he crossed the line and truly became a Sith.

With the later, we never learn how things got so out of hand. Yes Luke considered killing him but how does one go from, wanting revenge against a family member to, take over the galaxy, hate everyone in said family even if they had nothing to do with said attempted murder and became a Vader fanboy. This is one of the reasons that Kylo is such a poorly written villain, his motives make less sense the more you think about them.

Again, even though I HATE LotF Jacen's motives did make at least a little sense as all he wanted to protect his daughter while Kylo goal seems to be evil because that's what the plot demands.

Same thing with Mara and Rey as while the two do share a few key similarities they are one is, again IMO, far better then the other because her motives make sense, she wants revenge against someone for killing their surrogate father and later want to break away from that surrogate father because she learns that he only ever saw her as a tool to be used and dis-guarded.

Rey wants to become a Jedi because she's a fan of the original trilogy and later wants to start a relationship with Kylo because, data not found.

[Yukaphile]

Yeah. I mean, there's also the fact Jacen was captured and tortured by the Yuuzhan Vong. Kind of like Bastila Shan from KOTOR, now I think of it. And it's rather amusing to me in that people who love the sequels but bash the prequels can't seem to somehow spot that Kylo Ren is just as emo as Anakin ever was once he hit adulthood. Guess they just like how the sequels capture all the superficial feel of the original trilogy rather than any substance, whereas the prequels had substance, but it was too incoherent to form a combined whole.

That's where the simple-minded "light vs. dark dichotomy" comes in, I think, at least to the people writing this big-budget fanfiction. Light is good, dark is evil, and to turn dark makes you behave a certain way. Though, like, isn't Kylo Ren a Vader fanboy? That would probably explain why. I'd really feel horrified to see these people writing Kreia in KOTOR 2, or Darth Bane from his novels in Legends.

Everyone is a fan of the original trilogy in the sequels, yes? Kylo Ren, as I said, is a huge Vader fanboy. Rey is a fangirl of Luke, Leia, and Han. And thus we can pretend the prequels never happened because fanboys hated those, and we really ought to listen to those cruel freaks trashing Jake Lloyd and Ahmed Best. That JJ Abrams is now hinting about tying the final sequel film to the prequels is amusing to me, when they were so very clearly rejecting them just a few years prior, when it seemed the sequels had a bright future. My, how times have changed.

[Winter]

It's funny, as I've said before The Thrawn Trilogy was obviously written as a Direct Sequel to the Original Trilogy but also became a Spiritual Sequel to the Prequels due to a number of key similarities in the plot and certain character arcs. The most notable among them being, Leia giving Birth to twins, a clone army being created to fight the heroes, the use of Coruscant as a main setting throughout the trilogy and Mara's character arc being the flip side of Anakin's in the Prequels.

Sure there are some notable continuity errors but fans of the Original Trilogy loved TTT and fans of the Prequels likewise enjoyed it due to the similarities I just mentioned. The thing about SW is that, at the end of the day it is a action adventure series with sci-fi and fantasy elements but the action and adventure is always the one point that always takes certain stage.

And with TDST it honestly feels like they're more interested in making this a spiritual films with a greater emphases on the mythology of SW. Which is not a Bad thing as Star Wars have never really been just one thing but I think this ties into one of the reasons I so strongly dislike TLJ as that is that it's more interested in giving lectures about the Force instead of just getting on with the action and for me the action is just not very interesting when it does come in.

It also doesn't help that characters seem to make choices that are more based on plot or genre tropes then anything based on character. Case in point, Rey's sudden and out of nowhere romantic feelings for Kylo when only a few hours or a few days ago he had tried to torture and kill her, put her best friend in a coma and killed her surrogate father. And yet all that is either easily forgiven, Han's death, or ignored by the film completely, Finn being put into a coma and Kylo trying to torture and kill Rey.

In She-Ran and the Princess of Power we see that Adora wants to redeem Catra and that Catra wants Adora to join the Dark Side again but unlike Kylo and Rey there are Reasons for both to come to these conclusions. They've Known Each Other Since They Were Kids! It's fairly obvious that they're in love with each other and likely have been for a while and both make a effort to turn the other to their side and both have a reason for not going to them despite likely wanting to.

In her review for Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 Lindsay Ellis covered how that sometimes an abusive victim will have a harder time forgiving the family member or friend that failed to protect them instead of the abuser. I think that's what is going on with Catdora as Catra, as much as she loves Adora, is likely more angry at Adora for never really standing up to Shadow Weaver and Adora has never even tried to apologize for that.

For the two to truly forgive each other and be together Adora has to realize that she failed to protect Catra from their abusive mother and Catra has to realize that she and Adora were just kids and that she never meant to get her hurt.

But with Kylo and Rey, there is no reason for one to even give the other the time of day, let alone start acting like as if they're soul mates.

Kylo and Rey's relationship feels hollow because it is based on Nothing. They have no shared history, they don't really know each other (the Force Bond doesn't give them insight into each others thoughts and feelings it just allows them to see each other) and they spent most of TFA trying to kill each other. Adora and Catra know each other and have a history, they know each other, probably more so then either of them truly realize or are willing to admit and despite everything that has happened they still seem to love each other but are not yet ready to be together because they Have hurt each other. Which is Not helped by their respective mentors doing everything they can to drive the two apart.

However, at this point neither of them have truly crossed the point of no return as Catra has yet to really killed anyone Adora cares for while Adora still wants Catra to be wither her. Catra has hurt Adora's friends but no more so then what Zuko did to Aang and his friends and in the end he still ended up being a friend to Team Avatar.

But with Kylo, he crossed to many lines and hurt/KILLED people Rey cares about for her to give him a chance. Even Luke wasn't fully willing to forgive Vader for all his wrongs and it took Mara a whole year In Universe (three out of universe) just to become Luke's friend and she also had never hurt anyone he cared about and Mara came to see Palpatine for the horrible father that he was to her.

[Yukaphile]

Rey's "romantic" feelings for Kylo Ren also opens up disturbing implications, if that's what happened...

Sounds as if the "Force bond" is a flimsy plot device, rather than what it was shown to be throughout Legends. Tbf, it was kind of a plot device in KOTOR 2 as well, but at least they go into greater discussion on Force bonds there, that build the lore, but when I think Force bonds, I think the Jedi Apprentice series.

[Winter]

I heard a rumor, never confirmed and I can't remember where I read it, that the reason Rey and Kylo started attacking as if they were romantically interested in one another was because Rian Johnson is a big fan of the paring and wanted to tease at the idea. Now to be fair that is something that happens very often with writers like with Adora and Catra who the creator of the new series was a very big fan of. And on a side note, if I somehow got control over the series I would definitely try to make Lara and Sam's relationship officially romantic or at least tease at the two having feelings for one another if the most of the game being about their relationship.

So I'm honestly okay with Johnson wanting to ship tease them but the problem is he gives ZERO reason as to WHY they start to have romantic feelings. Why is Rey so willing to forgive Kylo for what he did only a few days ago At Most! The defense I've heard the most in regards as to Why Rey is so willing to forgive and forget is because the Dark Side is temptation and that's why she so easily falls for Kylo's BS.

There just one little problem with this theory which is, as I've said before, Rey and Kylo Don't Know Each Other. There has to be some sort of connection/reason for her to be willing to give him this chance and the film Doesn't give us one besides he's being really nice to her.

Going over to TR if I got control over the series one thing I want to do is to go over the feelings of both Lara and SAM and how their relationship is broken and how the two go about mending it. Lara feels guilty for causing so much pain in Sam's life and Sam feels betrayed that Lara left her without so much as a word.

I wouldn't just have them meet up again and act like nothing happened I would take the time to flesh out this relationship and examine why the two still want to be there for each other and how they go about mending that relationship. Sam wouldn't just forget that Lara left her and Lara wouldn't just forget that Sam almost lost Her Very Soul. Both sides have a point and in the end it's down to both of them to mend what has been broken.

But with Rey and Kylo, all it takes is 3 Force Chats and she's ready to just forget all his sins like they didn't really matter to her. Again, it took Mara almost a whole year In Universe to just become friends with Luke and Adora and Catra still have a ton of issues to sort out before the two of them are ready to be together.

But Rey, she goes from Hating him, her words, to being pretty much in love with him because he was nice to her. It's like reading one of those terrible Tauradonna (Adam + Blake) fan fics from RWBY who likewise ignore, forget or, in some cases, glorify the latter's terrible treatment of the former as if abusive love isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

[Yukaphile]

It really does have unfortunate implications, as TV Tropes would put it. Disney wants to market itself as a primarily left-leaning, Feminist-thinking, family-friendly company? Then how the hell did they think this would be a good idea? This seems almost akin to Peri and the Sixth Doctor's relationship, tbh... at the very least, it's the "girls want bad boys" trope, which needs a solid foundation to work, and I'm assuming this doesn't have one.

[Jonathan101]

It might be a deconstruction of the "girls want bad boys" trope, if you want it to work from a feminist standpoint- Rey is a good person who is trying to save a damaged young man from himself, but he's beyond saving and such relationships rarely work out in real life. Kylo and Hux are stereotypical angry young men with violent and authoritarian tendencies who were manipulated by a powerful evil old guy and Ran in particular is basically a school shooter who got away with it and fled to join Space ISIS.

For my part, I never for a second honestly believed that Kylos' fall to darkness was due to Luke thinking about killing him- if his first response to that was to burn down a school, kill most of the students and take the rest to team up with an evil intergalactic Fascist regime, then he was already a pretty bad dude even if he hadn't fully acted on it yet (quite possibly he'd done bad stuff already which we don't know about), which is sort of hinted at since Luke only thought about killing him because he looked into his mind and was shocked at just HOW evil he'd become.

I'm not sure that scene was intended to be his REAL start of darkness; it was there in part to explain why Luke had exiled himself in the first place as well as to make the audience (and Rey) falsely believe that Kylo was more sympathetic than he really was by teasing that Luke is what made him turn evil, while in reality it wasn't that at all and at worse that was just the straw that broke the Darksiders back.

It's not a bad "idea", but it sits awkwardly from a story-structure POV and the execution leaves us wondering still about the Knights of Ren and all that stuff. As ever of course there are always audience members who honestly think that it's all Lukes' fault when in reality, Kylo is just a dick.

[Winter]

It might be a deconstruction of the "girls want bad boys" trope,

This is actually another issue I have with TDST which is the argument that it's deconstruction or satire but Star Wars ISN'T about deconstruction or satire it's a action adventure series set in a sci-fi world with fantasy elements. Sure some tropes in the Original Trilogy Were subverted like Leia being a badass in her own right and Luke was a bit of a whiner before becoming a hero but that isn't really the same thing.

That was more about Lucas just giving characters flaws and breaking away from certain cliches that he didn't like or agree with. And even if is a deconstruction of girls want bad boys Trope it still has the issue of Rey not having or being given a reason to want to forgive Kylo or to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Again it was either just a few hours or days ago that Kylo killed her surrogate father, put her best friend in a coma and tried to torture and kill her. I'm all for deconstructions of tropes so long as they make sense in story are aren't being done solely to subvert said tropes.

For example in the episode Promise from She-Ra, spoilers, Catra and Adora see visions of their past and how the two grew up together. In any other show this would be the point where Catra has a Heel-Face turn but instead seeing these memories and how Adora, however unintentional, never stood up to Shadow Weaver or try to get other kids to like Catra. This is a deconstruction and one that fits within the story and possibly even casts a darker light on Light Hope if the theory that she showed these memories to drive a wedge between Adora and Catra to make the latter more of a weapon.

It also helps to further Catra's character arc as just joining the rebels now wouldn't really do anything besides just being on Adora's side and that would be a cheap move while her remaining the the Horde allows for more story possibilities. It also helps that Catra and Hordak are actually competent villains with the former being, IMO, Kylo done right and the latter being more like Thrawn instead of another Evil Emperor clone.

With Kylo one of the major issues with him and the rest of the FO is that they are A) All borderline parodies of more popular SW characters and B) Are so incompetent that it makes taking them as serious threats impossible for most fans.

Catra had almost succeeded in her plans and had it not been for the timely arrival of the other Princess she would have won. But with Kylo, he has failed pretty much every major tasks assigned to him and has resorted to throwing tantrums and screaming his lungs out.

As Yukaphile pointed out Lucas had already tried the Emo Teen thing for SW with Anakin and it was so poorly received that Lucas actually went out of his way to avoid it in ROTS and tried to make Anakin more of a threat and sympathetic.

I think the main reason I so strongly dislike TDST so far, though I do still have a soft spot for TFA, is that it reminds me WAAAY to much of Legacy of the Force which is the story that many argue is what actually killed the Original EU. Just like TDST it also killed off a number of beloved characters, turned a Solo kid into a Sith, was loaded with padding and also felt like it was trying to be a deconstruction of SW at times. Admittedly it's been a few years since I read LOTF and I like myself to much to read it again but much like TLJ I just lost my interest in the series as it was all shock value for the sake of shock value.