Thinking about Dune and its politics

[CharlesPhipps]

I am looking forward to the next DUNE remake but it's kind of sad that no one ever wants to do the entire Dune Saga because the really interesting thing about the books is the fact that Paul is the Villain Protagonist. The Harkonnens are awful people, based on the Nazis, but eliminating them is not Paul's goal: eliminating the Emperor who supported them and taking over is. That makes him unleash a galaxy-spanning crusade that kills 90 billion people and makes him the worst mass murderer in all of universal history. All of which he allows because it's the only way to solidify his power.

He's a great deconstruction of the "Great Man" of history as is Leto II. Both are TERRIBLE rulers.

[ORCACommander]

I dunno about paul being a villain protag, More a man who lost control of his own legend. he even remarked mentally at one point that he witnessed a man who'd had known him since he was a young man turn from confidant and friend to religious zealot

[Madner Kami]

Leto II a terrible ruler? I'll concede that Paul failed as a ruler, because he lost control over his visions due to his fear of loosing control over his visions. A thousand ways to become a terrible monster and only one way out, that is more terrible in the short term, but saves humanity in the long run. He was too weak to endure the later and thus ended up walking one of the thousand paths.

But Leto II? His Golden Path may appear terrible from an individual level, but in reality? Not only does it save humanity as a whole and even though it is rather repressive to the invidual by it's collectivist nature, I can't actually remember anyone suffering under his rule. Truely suffering. Not the kind of suffering we endure in our first world, because it appears that almost all the troubles under Leto II's rule are First World Problems.

[Beastro]

I dunno about paul being a villain protag, More a man who lost control of his own legend. he even remarked mentally at one point that he witnessed a man who'd had known him since he was a young man turn from confidant and friend to religious zealot

The major point of the first three books is that no one has control over their legend and people as a group take things in their own direction beyond the control of any one person.

People like to talk about going back in time to kill Hitler, but it ignores the trauma WWI produced in the Germans over not getting their place in the sun they had convinced themselves was theirs by right. Had the Nazi's not been a thing they'd have found another channel in which to express their rage with.

Not the kind of suffering we endure in our first world, because it appears that almost all the troubles under Leto II's rule are First World Problems.

Which were specifically picked to annoy people on a deeper level in order to get them really in the mood to burst out and explore the universe.

Reminds me what one of my ferrets would do to the other who was shy and didn't want to wrestle: He'd get her in a lock biting her scruff and hold her down until she was furious, then let her go and dance around running away happy that she was in hot pursuit now very eager to "play".

[CharlesPhipps]

Leto II a terrible ruler? I'll concede that Paul failed as a ruler, because he lost control over his visions due to his fear of loosing control over his visions. A thousand ways to become a terrible monster and only one way out, that is more terrible in the short term, but saves humanity in the long run. He was too weak to endure the later and thus ended up walking one of the thousand paths.

But Leto II? His Golden Path may appear terrible from an individual level, but in reality? Not only does it save humanity as a whole and even though it is rather repressive to the invidual by it's collectivist nature, I can't actually remember anyone suffering under his rule. Truely suffering. Not the kind of suffering we endure in our first world, because it appears that almost all the troubles under Leto II's rule are First World Problems.

Leto II says he's the worst tyrant in the history of the universe and that he is such a bad tyrant that there's a racial hatred of authority bred into the human race from that point on. His Golden Path also stems from the idea that everyone must be driven away from our galaxy because they want to get away from him.

[Madner Kami]

Leto II a terrible ruler? I'll concede that Paul failed as a ruler, because he lost control over his visions due to his fear of loosing control over his visions. A thousand ways to become a terrible monster and only one way out, that is more terrible in the short term, but saves humanity in the long run. He was too weak to endure the later and thus ended up walking one of the thousand paths.

But Leto II? His Golden Path may appear terrible from an individual level, but in reality? Not only does it save humanity as a whole and even though it is rather repressive to the invidual by it's collectivist nature, I can't actually remember anyone suffering under his rule. Truely suffering. Not the kind of suffering we endure in our first world, because it appears that almost all the troubles under Leto II's rule are First World Problems.

Leto II says he's the worst tyrant in the history of the universe and that he is such a bad tyrant that there's a racial hatred of authority bred into the human race from that point on. His Golden Path also stems from the idea that everyone must be driven away from our galaxy because they want to get away from him.

Maybe it's a question of how we read words, but Leto II was a successful ruler. He achieved all his goals and left an impression on mankind, that will forever influence humanity's behaviour and he did so by intent.

[Actarus]

Leto II a terrible ruler? I'll concede that Paul failed as a ruler, because he lost control over his visions due to his fear of loosing control over his visions. A thousand ways to become a terrible monster and only one way out, that is more terrible in the short term, but saves humanity in the long run. He was too weak to endure the later and thus ended up walking one of the thousand paths.

But Leto II? His Golden Path may appear terrible from an individual level, but in reality? Not only does it save humanity as a whole and even though it is rather repressive to the invidual by it's collectivist nature, I can't actually remember anyone suffering under his rule. Truely suffering. Not the kind of suffering we endure in our first world, because it appears that almost all the troubles under Leto II's rule are First World Problems.

Leto II imposed a politic of scarcity over all the Empire. His strict control of spice production and distribution hit the Spacing Guild pretty hard. Transport was slowed. It was harder for goods and people to leave their planets, which means that the economy was terrible. It also meant overpopulation on the planets. Not only that, but the treatment of information was made even more difficult by the abolition of the Order of Mentats. The Landsraad was destroyed, so there was no local power to take the leadership to oppose the God-Emperor. Of course, it also hit the Bene Gesserit hard (and taught them a lesson of humility). Leto's oppression was not overly violent, but it was like a heavy blanket that kept everyone very, very warm, unable to move and barely breathing. That is why he chose women to form his Fishspeakers. For their motherly, smothering care...

Now, I will agree that it was all intended to teach a lesson and to provoke the creation of the powers that will finally destroy him and the Empire and lead humanity afterwards (Bene Gesserit) and that it all wroked out as he wanted. Still, his rule was no pleasure cruise to the people living under it.

[Actarus]

I am looking forward to the next DUNE remake but it's kind of sad that no one ever wants to do the entire Dune Saga because the really interesting thing about the books is the fact that Paul is the Villain Protagonist. The Harkonnens are awful people, based on the Nazis, but eliminating them is not Paul's goal: eliminating the Emperor who supported them and taking over is. That makes him unleash a galaxy-spanning crusade that kills 90 billion people and makes him the worst mass murderer in all of universal history. All of which he allows because it's the only way to solidify his power.

He's a great deconstruction of the "Great Man" of history as is Leto II. Both are TERRIBLE rulers.

The entire saga is based on amoral principles. It's all "the ends justify the means." The only difference between Baron Harkonnen and Paul Atreides is their goals. The Baron only wants power for himself while Paul wants it to save humanity. Even more true for Leto II. But their methods are not really different.

Also, Frank Herbert said himself that Dune was a warning: "Beware of charismatic leaders".

As for the movies, the story is so massive that they needed to make two just for the first book. I hope the movies will be succesfull. Then, maybe, we could get other movies up to God-Emperor. I also hope Villeneuve gives us a glimpse of the Jihad that will follow Paul's accession to the throne, just to tone down the messiah impression Lynch's ending gave us. Just to show that all is not fine and dandy.

[Fianna]

Something I never understood is why, between the first Dune and Dune Messiah, the Fremen started massacring people in Paul's name, and Paul was seemingly powerless to stop it. It's not like Paul has passed away and people are using his legend to further their own ends. Paul is still alive and the boss of them, so I never got a clear picture of why he couldn't just tell the rampaging Fremen, "Hey, knock that shit off."

[CharlesPhipps]

Something I never understood is why, between the first Dune and Dune Messiah, the Fremen started massacring people in Paul's name, and Paul was seemingly powerless to stop it. It's not like Paul has passed away and people are using his legend to further their own ends. Paul is still alive and the boss of them, so I never got a clear picture of why he couldn't just tell the rampaging Fremen, "Hey, knock that shit off."

A large part of the book is about how the Fremen aren't actually nice people (90 billion killed). Paul has been beating the drum that he's the messiah, Mua'dib, and a living god for the better part of a decade. It was what allowed him to be Emperor.

You can't just say, "Oh yeah, I'm not a God and these people shouldn't worship me."

RL is full of people killed by their own followers for such things.