Sfdebris.net

This will be interesting. So, one of the biggest criticisms of the Disney Sequel Trilogy is that the lead character, Rey, is a Mary Sue which is based mainly on how quickly she learns the Force in a Very short amount of time (3 days at least or 1 week at most (the amount of time that passes in The Last Jedi is so confusing)).

Before I say what I think let's really look at what a Mary Sue is. By definition a Mary Sue is someone who is perfect at everything they do despite having little to no training, is instantly liked by everyone they meet and has no real flaws weaknesses. To use an example we're all familiar who is a character we can ALL agree with is a Mary Sue, Wesley Crusher (I use Mary Sue as a gender neutral term as it's really just a character type and has Nothing to do with gender).

In TNG seasons 1 through 2 Wesley is an insufferable perfect little acting Ensign who always saves the day and never really seems to get into trouble for anything he does usually because he always has a solution to the problem at hand. He has an understanding of Trek Tech that not even Data seems to possess, and he's liked by pretty much everyone he meets and the few who don't like him are either A) Proven to be a horribly irredeemable villain or B) Change their minds because they've seen the light and now know he is the one true Crusher.

So, does Rey fit these points? Let's loo at them one by one and for the record NO mention of the tie-in novels to explain away Rey's powers, if it's not in the films themselves it doesn't count. First off Rey's level of talent, she's a skilled fighter, capable of piloting any vehicle is a good shot with a blaster despite having never really used one before (by her own admission I might add) and, more importantly, learns the Force very quickly and is able to achieve feats of Force skills that Luke NEVER truly mastered in the Original Trilogy despite only have said powers for one week AT MOST.

The first few points aren't really enough to qualify Rey as a Mary Sue as Every character can do what she does. Luke is a skilled pilot and a good shot with a Blaser. These are just the skills of a Protagonist and aren't really that important when you get down to it. But then comes her skills in the Force and, again, in a matter of days she is able to use the Jedi Mind Trick, Force Pull, Use a Lightsaber with enough skill to beat at least 3 people who have trained in Lightsaber combat/Lightsaber Like Combat for most of their lives AND lefts up Several LARGE Boulders that was covering a cave entrance the size of a small house. And three of these skills were learned just a few MINUTES of learning she had powers.

Two, is Rey liked by everyone she meets? Yeah, kinda. BB8, Finn, Han, Chewy, Leia and Poe all instantly treat her like family despite only knowing her for a few hours at most. Even Yoda says how Great Rey is and how she has all she needs to save the Jedi. Likewise Kylo Ren is obsessed with Rey and very clearly in love with her and often praises her skills even when she's not in ear shot. The only people who don't like her right off the bat is Luke, who changes his mind on her towards the end of the film and Snoke, who's killed off by Kylo when Snoke ordered him to kill her on the spot.

Luke was not instantly liked by everyone. Han was at odds with him for most of A New Hope, Leia got annoyed with him for his lack of planning and Vader didn't even know he was suppose to take him seriously as a threat.

And finally, Rey's flaws? Rey does have flaws, her belief in her parents despite them straight up abandoning her as a child and her incorrect belief that Kylo could be redeemed because he was being nice to her along with one or two comedic moments like her unleashing the plot filler monsters in The Force Awakens and misunderstanding what Luke meant by reaching out (which, I admit, gets a chuckle out of me).

But that's about it and none of them really stand out as far as flaws go with her biggest issue being trusting Kylo and wanting to redeem him which, I'm sorry, comes out of nowhere and is completely forced.

Luke was in Hope was whiny, impatient, isn't the best planner and has a bit of a temper. That may not sound like much but they are Very important to his character growth as these are flaws that hound him throughout the film (and the whole Trilogy in fact).

Let's take a moment and look at Dani in Terminator: Dark Fate. Out of all the lead characters she is the leased skilled in combat and has no understanding of the Terminators. Sarah treats her like a child and not without cause and she gets into a number of arguments with Grace due to her not wanting leave anyone behind which is a point Sarah and Carl agree on. She's fearful of the future and doesn't understand why no one will believe her on what she's seen. She is the one who delivers the killing blow to the Rev9 but that was done by her doing something she didn't want to do and it resulted in the deaths of others.

She could have used more down time to flesh out her character but Dani does not fit the definition as a Mary Sue.

However, a Mary Sue is not really a bad thing either. Mary Poppins and Baron Humbert von Gikkingen fit the Mary Sue trope to a T and they are AWESOME!!! I, like many, love these two and them being Mary Sue's doesn't bug me because they're so much fun to watch.

So being a Mary Sue isn't an issue anymore then NOT being a Mary Sue is a good thing. You can have a character who doesn't fit ANY of the Mary Sue Tropes and STILL be a terrible character. I doubt many would come to the defense of Neelix who's often disliked by his fellow crew mates, has a number of flaws and fails at pretty much everything he does including the one job he actually HAS.

So, where does that leave Rey. She does largely fit the definition of a Mary Sue. Good at everything she does, few to no real flaws and is pretty much loved by everyone. But does that make her a bad character? No, but it doesn't make her a good one either.

The thing about Mary Poppins and the Baron is that they are both supernatural beings and are quite clearly immortal so they likely have literally Centuries of Experience in all they do or are just like that naturally due to being magic. And, again, they're fun to watch.

By contrast, Mara Jade, (you knew I was going to bring her in here at some point) is a VERY flawed character. She's short tempered, impatient, assumes she knows best when she clearly doesn't and is constantly outclassed by more experienced Force Users. On top of that she has the Worse luck. But she's still has a number of awesome moments. She outsmarts Thrawn, is the one who lands the killing blow on C'baoth and saves Han, Leia and their kids.

The issue I have with Rey is that she has very little character/development throughout her Trilogy. Luke is forced to grow up when he finds that he's whole world (metaphorically speaking) is completely destroyed and he needs to face the harsh reality of becoming an adult while Mara is forced to except that Palpatine, her adoptive father, was abusive towards her and that she has to expect that and move on with her life. And Dani is about learning that the life she had is gone and that to be the person who will lead humanity against Legion she's going to have to make choices she doesn't like to win a no win scenario, up to and including sacrificing the people she will come to care for.

Rey doesn't have an arc. The whole thing with her parents is pretty much forgotten about and her getting a new family is done with little to no issue as, again, everyone she meets likes her almost the moment they see her. Her learning her parents are nobody and that she has to except that is barely touched upon in TLJ and is resolved off screen after being confronted by that fact.

In my Tomb Raider Project the themes of the story is that Trauma is not something you can ever truly over come, that Revenge is a worthless cause that can consume and destroy you if you're not careful and to embrace those you love because they can help you through the tougher situations. These themes are HEAVILY tied into the main characters and it explores Lara and Sam's characters, relationship and flaws and how they work to either over come their flaws and to live with the choices they've made.

So, for me, the question of is Rey are Mary Sue the answer is yes and while being a Mary Sue isn't always a bad thing here it is because I just don't find her compelling enough to pull me through the rest of the story.

There's one major component to the Mary Sue that needs to be further addressed, and it is that the original Mary Sue was a jab at the poor writing in fanfiction back then. It was a list on all the things NOT to submit to an official fanfiction magazine. It is about author inserts, that original feeling of wanting to explore space alongside the Enterprise crew, bone as much people as you can, and do their jobs better than them and in the end, be worshiped by them. That's a very specific type of Mary Sue. I'm sure you could make the argument that Rey is a Mary Sue because Lucasfilm is headed by a woman, and she's definitely some degree of leftist, but I don't think it's a deliberate Mary Sue. Certainly not an author insert of Kathleen Kennedy past some shared Feminist viewpoints, but then... who created Rey? If it's Abrams, that argument falls apart. I really doubt he's a Mary Sue. More like he was trying to "unite" the fandom and Legends fans had felt marginalized since the decanonizing, and that's a feeling that we all share now. She was clearly an inferior Jaina Solo with flavors of Luke. Kylo Ren, as I've said again, is just Jacen Solo dressed up as Revan when he was Darth Caedus, nothing more. Maybe you could also argue she might have been Abrams' initial excitement at being part of Star Wars, entering this world and feeling like Luke, crafting the adventure and being part of the creative process, as much as any of us would, so she could technically still be a Mary Sue, but in a loose and disconnected way. It's just in the absence of good storytelling, people fill in their own reasons to why it sucked and what they hated most.

Most characters that the intersectional crowd likes are Mary Sues because they can face no real hardships, because they view them having to face hardships as symbolic of an attack on women. Also, as this character is meant to represent all women, they can't have any real characteristics to set them apart, so they end up coming off as a self-insertion character. Moreover, only the bad guys are allowed to dislike the Sue, and part of what makes them bad guys is that they dislike the Sue, which is also very in line with how the identity politics crowd thinks.

Who the hell is the "intersectional crowd?" The problem is the film is TOO FAST, so... of course there's no hardships. I thought Toy Story 4 was similar before I gave it up in disappointment.

That's a strawman, dude. I'm a strongly-minded sex-positive Feminist who is very hard-line on a lot of Feminist issues, but I'm not blind to the pain men feel either. I'd also claim that a lot of this, while it is a story being made by leftists, is not a deliberate attempt to shove the agenda down your throat. Greed and the decaying power structures are what is killing the movie industry because theaters are on the decline, and to a large degree, they gotta make their actors happy, and Hollywood is largely leftist-leaning. So take that elsewhere, if you please.

No, Rey is literally not a self-insert unless you can say who created her? If it's Kathleen Kennedy, then you'll have a case, in a disconnected way. With Abrams, even more so, in a VERY loosely disconnected way. Also, you're bastardizing how we feel when wanting to be the hero in the story with "self-insert." That's a term applied to the creators.

Yukaphile wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:39 am Who the hell is the "intersectional crowd?"

Current year feminists. The kind even you hate.

The problem is the film is TOO FAST, so... of course there's no hardships.

They managed in the original trilogy.

That's a strawman, dude. I'm a strongly-minded sex-positive Feminist who is very hard-line on a lot of Feminist issues, but I'm not blind to the pain men feel either. I'd also claim that a lot of this, while it is a story being made by leftists, is not a deliberate attempt to shove the agenda down your throat. Greed and the decaying power structures are what is killing the movie industry because theaters are on the decline, and to a large degree, they gotta make their actors happy, and Hollywood is largely leftist-leaning. So take that elsewhere, if you please.

That has nothing to do with what I said. I described why a character designed to appeal to the intersectional crowd (feminists among them) would inevitably be a Sue.

No, Rey is literally not a self-insert unless you can say who created her?

I would have thought as an anime watcher that you'd be familiar with the concept of an audience self-insertion character given the large number of male protagonists who very much fit that particular description. This is going to apply to a character who is created to appeal to people who see her as representing all women.

Is that a real term, used by people other than the right-leaning crowd, or not? Same way THOT is a new made-up label, that I HATE. And you also have a "strawman" of the Feminists I dislike as well, it seems. I dislike the Lesbian Utopia thinkers, and I dislike how challenging gender roles is not the new Feminism. Yes, even if it disproportionately affects women or is carried out by men, like sexual abuse (against men, women, and children), or how a lot of leaders of the last century who were villains were male, that's purely a coincidence. Maybe it's part of our larger gendered mindset, but true equality demands you treat them as evil people who just happened to be male, nothing more. I also dislike the claims by some who insist they are "sex-positive" Feminists, then trash porn and legalized prostitution. Poparena is one of them. I think porn is like any system of power, there is potential for abuse to it, but even so, you have the power to choose what content to pursue, and of that material that is exploiting people, you have the power to help fight it, as others do in higher positions of power. And I want legal prostitution. It is ridiculously old-fashioned regulating of morality that just... needs to change, period.

Lucas balanced out his own flaws by drawing in more competent people. You know that as well as I do. They do not do that today. And since theaters are on the decline, they're just locked into a "milking the cow" approach.

You have zero proof that's their agenda past your own feelings and a strawman. Yes, majority of Hollywood actors and movers and shakers are left-leaning. And there is a huge need to keep the actors happy. That said, I've maintained those would be flaws that are otherwise easy to overlook in a good story. There are none. There's a huge absence of quality. I find it so amusing how the descent of modern movies reveals what political spectrum that person belongs to. Any person leaning even slightly right is going to dislike the "progressive" agenda while left-wingers dislike the greed. Ironically, the right-wingers tend to voice complaints about character that are closer to reality, while the left-wingers drool over the open diversity because again, in the absence of quality, politics is all we have left. It gets insane when you claim "Trek is more diverse than ever." WTF, you idiots? Did you not watch DS9? Black captain! Female first officer. A trans/bi allegory in some people's minds, who openly kissed another woman on screen! Aliens. And so much more! It's just... ugh, why are people stupider than ever? Can't common sense... be more common? Instead of like a rare superpower?

Yes, and here's an article by someone who doesn't think she's a Mary Sue that tells you every single reason she is one: https://www.cbr.com/rise-of-skywalker-prequel-rey-jedi-anakin-luke/

She is just as powerful as Revenge of the Sith Anakin within a week without explanation. For the record, it took him a decade.

Anakin spend a decade being trained by Jedi masters to learn how to use a lightsaber.
Luke spent years self-training with a lightsaber and was still clearly less proficient than Anakin.
Rey mastered the lightsaber in a week without training. Can now duel Snoke's personal guard effortlessly.

She is a better gunner, pilot and mechanic than Han Solo.

Luke lost his first duel with a Sith (losing a hand) and nearly lost the second.
Anakin lost his first duel with a Sith (losing his hand) and lost his duel with Obi Wan (losing his body).
Rey has won every duel she has been in and did so with barely a scratch.

She is loved by almost everyone upon meeting them and by many who never met her until the closing credits of TLJ. The people who don't love her are nevertheless obsessed by her.

Her greatest flaw? Uh... she loves too much?

Lets get real here: Star Wars 9 will have been deliberately rewritten to try and explain a lot of this. And then Rey defenders will go ''ah, see! It makes sense now!!!'' without ever factoring in that they had to retcon her to do so.

I don't care for her myself, but my little nieces only got interested in Star Wars at all because they thought she was awesome. Since I'm fairly certain they're the real target audience, I have to call the way she's written a success.

I think her being an instant expert is supposed to be a Clue for J.J.'s beloved Mystery Box.

Look, I really dislike the "a Mary Sue is a woman that is hypercompetent at everything" agenda some people spout, because it has very unfortunate implications, that a woman being good at something is bad, whereas a man in that same place is not. I don't think this is that, but I also would consider she is not a Mary Sue so much as Sue-ish. I mean, look at the original Mary Sue. She had Spock and the others worshiping her. She then died with them all crying over her body. The "doing all their jobs" was just one aspect of the self-insert character. No, I don't buy it's a self-insert because despite being liberal, Disney and Lucasfilm are very trapped in their options, and I think it's a byproduct of how most of Hollywood leans left. You can't escape it. It's greed, not politics, that is killing the movie industry. If we consider the core components of the Mary Sue to be 1) Hypercompetence to an unreasonable degree 2) Worship from everyone around her 3) Being a self-insert, then she only follows one of these traits. The first one. And I maintain that is poor execution. It also could be way worse. Let's admit to that. She is still in the vein of a hero. Janeway? Well, imagine if she was like Janeway. Claiming they don't want their female lead to show weakness is pure theory despite Hollywood leaning left. Again, as I'd alluded to before, they felt the same for Janeway, and look how that worked out (where she was presented as schizophrenic rather than a hero), but do you have any proof they're deliberately clamping down on her weaknesses? Hard evidence? The second? I can't speak to the quality of the film, of course, but I'm sure others could debate it. But some "slight" worship is not that bad, and in the eye of the beholder. I mean, they treated her as the new Luke, and even hyped up the past, so that's kind of what I mean by how it wasn't planned. Just chaos from no clear creative force. The third is pure fantasy. If you wanna claim they're pandering to Feminists or strong women, that's one thing. But you need to get into specifics on how this is a self-insert to, who? Abrams or Kennedy? Past the more shallow stuff to claim she is a Sue. In the end, I'g peg Rey at 20% Sue-ish. She gets 3 Sues out of 10.