Sfdebris.net

The military's plans to take out Apophis. Maybe it's just a bit of poor realization, but I don't understand how they could be so naive as to think that their force fields couldn't withstand the attack, given their long history of space travel, more than we've had, and their time in studying and utilizing naquadah? Maybe you could just say it was some highly ambitious politicians, but I don't buy it. Kinsey was coordinating with Maybourne and Samuels, and they had to have been very confident to shut down the Stargate Program. I think a better alternative would have been if they had felt they gathered all the intelligence they needed from SG-1's missions to defend themselves, and in the absence of gathering new technology, it was pointless. Let me elaborate. O'Neill had learned in "The Nox" that you could bypass their shields a certain way. With two naquadah-enhanced missiles armed with those tactics, it could have made the US chain of command overconfident. But I never saw that. They literally just think their new uber-missiles will work, without trying that fancy bypassing maneuver. Or am I just overthinking this?

They figured ‘hey, a really small nuke took down Ra’s Ship, some HUGE ones will take down two more just fine.’

Because they’re overconfident idiots and don’t consider that even enhanced nuclear weapons are going to pale in comparison to the energy output required to move between star systems without taking a shortcut through a wormhole.

Military type people will often look at the most powerful thing we have and go ‘nothing could be stronger than this, especially if we put a hemi in it and paint some kickass flames on the side’. Watch more, and their consistent response to everything is a nuclear warhead.

It’s the ‘every problem looks like a nail’ thing.

It's the standard writing trope of "making the protagonists the only competent people in the room.

MissAshleyJ wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:55 am It's the standard writing trope of "making the protagonists the only competent people in the room.

This too, yes, but it’s at least vaguely explained by the ‘when All you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail’ thing.

I tend to look at these questions from an in universe perspective rather than just take the ‘because the writing sucks’ cop-out.

Yeah, it's pretty standard for anyone who's not one of the main cast, or at least within their clique, to be portrayed as idiots, malicious, or both. It serves to create drama on another front.

To justify it in in-universe terms, three things come to mind-

1. It's hard enough to wrap your mind around nuclear weapons, let alone the idea that super powerful aliens have defenses that could stop them and weapons even more powerful. The liaisons and politicians from Washington that occasionally show up aren't in the day-to-day trenches facing these threats, and there's a good chance they spend most of their time around people who have no idea the Stargate Progam even exists. It makes a bit of sense that the threat would seem unreal to them, they might read the reports but they don't necessarily believe them. It isn't lived experience.

2. Their arrogance and egoism clouds their judgment. Kinsey in particular. He seems to be a big believer in manifest destiny and American exceptionalism. His belief system that America is invincible (largely because he's a part of it) doesn't allow for the idea that they could lose.

3. This becomes more clear later, but Kinsey and others have a valid point about the danger of the way the Stargate program is run. As viewers we know that SG-1 is destined to improbably save Earth something like a dozen times, but from an in-universe perspective it looks an awful lot like they're exceedingly lucky to be alive after multiple close calls and could easily get things wrong the next time. If you go by episodes like There But For the Grace of God, it seems likely that in most universes Apophis either enslaved Earth or destroyed it. The attitude in The Serpent's Lair is about the "competent" military taking back control of the situation and using the tools that they know how to use.

ChiggyvonRichthofen wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:45 am 2. Their arrogance and egoism clouds their judgment. Kinsey in particular. He seems to be a big believer in manifest destiny and American exceptionalism. His belief system that America is invincible (largely because he's a part of it) doesn't allow for the idea that they could lose.

3. This becomes more clear later, but Kinsey and others have a valid point about the danger of the way the Stargate program is run. As viewers we know that SG-1 is destined to improbably save Earth something like a dozen times, but from an in-universe perspective it looks an awful lot like they're exceedingly lucky to be alive after multiple close calls and could easily get things wrong the next time. If you go by episodes like There But For the Grace of God, it seems likely that in most universes Apophis either enslaved Earth or destroyed it. The attitude in The Serpent's Lair is about the "competent" military taking back control of the situation and using the tools that they know how to use.

Kinsey is a great example of what TVTropes calls ''Strawman has a point''. If you take out his later appearances where he is clearly Lex Luthor; in his first appearance nothing about what he says about the Stargate program is false provided that you remove the fact that we the viewer have fourth wall breaking knowledge. And so, realising that they have written themselves into a corner, the only alternative they have is to attack the man and not his views by making him the worst stereotype of blind patriotism and religious fundamentalism.

And Stargate imo is particularly bad at this compared to its peers. It is very rare that a main character is criticised only for them not to shove it back in someone's face later. Atlantis was FAR worse at this than SG-1 though. If Weir or AT-1 as a whole does it, by damn you can guarantee that it was the right call.

It could also be a matter of learning the wrong lessons from the ground engagements. All those fancy Goa'uld weapons being used by slave warriors are measurably, comically inferior to conventional weapons in the hands of professional soldiers. That space combat is the one place they had actually taken warfare somewhat seriously and deployed their superior technology in an almost sensible way would naturally be something of a surprise.

mathewgsmith wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:35 pm It could also be a matter of learning the wrong lessons from the ground engagements. All those fancy Goa'uld weapons being used by slave warriors are measurably, comically inferior to conventional weapons in the hands of professional soldiers. That space combat is the one place they had actually taken warfare somewhat seriously and deployed their superior technology in an almost sensible way would naturally be something of a surprise.

Very good point. And even then as we later see the garden variety Ha'Tak's are pretty crappy.

They didn't really know that a slow-moving object would get past Goa'uld mothership shields like it does their personal shields - we still don't know if that would work.

They gambled that the warheads wouldn't be detected, but they were, and the Goa'uld motherships raised their shields and the warheads were ineffective. That was a desoerate gamble because they didn't have a clue as to Goa'uld sensor capabilities, but IIRC the real downside to the plan according to General Hammond was that the world's military defenses wouldn't be scrambled, and I don't think there would be much to those defenses anyway, not against bombardment from orbit. I think the "Goa'uld busters" were probably their best shot with the little knowledge they had.

Honestly, it never made sense to me either to be that over confident. A slight tweak to the script could have made it a little better by saying 'this is the best we have and we are not sure if it will work but we have to try anyway'.

Ground combat by the Jaffa is pretty bad but probably grounded in tradition in using the staffs. It took Teal'c a while to go to the conventional guns over his staff too.

Kinda would have been cool if some smart Gould redesigned the staff in the same configuration as a rifle that shit smaller bolts and at a higher rate.