Sfdebris.net

So, as I've mentioned and posted here a few times I've been review/comparing The Thrawn Trilogy to the Disney Sequel Trilogy just to see how well they hold up to each other. So far my thoughts on the respective stories have been, Heir to the Empire is Great, The Force Awakens is a fun popcorn flick and Dark Force Rising is a engaging story but is definitely slow in places (I mean the first two "Acts" of the novel have only 3 action scenes and they are very far between one another).

Of course, to give all of these stories a fair shot I HAD to read/watch all of them start to finish so each story would be fresh in my mind when I wrote down my thoughts on them. And this brings us to the very focus of this topic which is the most controversial Star Wars movie Ever, The Last Jedi.

Now it had been a while since I watched the film as I didn't personally enjoy it all that much but I'm an optimist, maybe I've been to harsh on the film and it might have gotten better. I mean I use to HATE Blade Runner because I thought it was slow and boring but years later I now think it's a fantastic film with a great story that's compelling.

Then I started watching the Last Jedi and after I was done I decided to just read the comic adaptation as I honestly feel it was a little bit better then the film and with the improvements the comic makes (most of the jokes are removed so there is a more consistent tone, Holdo is more of a jerk which ironically made her more likeable and having access to some characters thoughts helped to allow for better characterization) I STILL found it a slog to get through.

For me the film DIDN'T improve with time, if anything I think I like is LESS then when I first saw it. The characters do a TON of stupid things to get the plot moving, Rey is WAAAY to quick to give Kylo Ren a chance to redeem himself when he has literally done nothing but be horrible to her and hurt EVERYONE she cared for (mostly because he was just a little pissy), and Luke is about as in character as Clark was in Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice.

But that's just me, how does the film hold up for the rest of you?

P.S. Please remain civil while chatting about TLJ this is just for fun.

I got the impression that Rey was crushing hard on Kylo and made a stupid decision thinking she could "fix" him. Force-created empathic bond + dark&troubled brooding + dem abs. She's only supposed to be 19 and has basically no social experience; stupid decisions are expected. As soon as he goes into "we can rule together" mode she has a very clear "I've made a terrible mistake" expression.

Honestly i have said everything i need to. My opinions on this film have not changed: one of the worst films of the 2010s by a country mile.

mathewgsmith wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:09 pm I got the impression that Rey was crushing hard on Kylo and made a stupid decision thinking she could "fix" him. Force-created empathic bond + dark&troubled brooding + dem abs. She's only supposed to be 19 and has basically no social experience; stupid decisions are expected. As soon as he goes into "we can rule together" mode she has a very clear "I've made a terrible mistake" expression.

That is very possible and does make sense. I mean some girls do like brooding bad boys and Kylo is just that. Besides of also being fan of his own grandfather that is. Lack of social experience is one of her weaknesses which itself goes against claim that she is Mary Sue.

Mecha82 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:19 pm

mathewgsmith wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:09 pm I got the impression that Rey was crushing hard on Kylo and made a stupid decision thinking she could "fix" him. Force-created empathic bond + dark&troubled brooding + dem abs. She's only supposed to be 19 and has basically no social experience; stupid decisions are expected. As soon as he goes into "we can rule together" mode she has a very clear "I've made a terrible mistake" expression.

That is very possible and does make sense. I mean some girls do like brooding bad boys and Kylo is just that. Besides of also being fan of his own grandfather that is. Lack of social experience is one of her weaknesses which itself goes against claim that she is Mary Sue.

Actually it enforces her Suedom, not goes against it. Minor flaws of minor or inferred consequence are a Sue trait.
Clumsy is a popular "flaw" for example, particularly in anime.

The film is still pretty awful and it gets worse over time because more flaws keep popping up.

mathewgsmith wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:09 pm I got the impression that Rey was crushing hard on Kylo and made a stupid decision thinking she could "fix" him. Force-created empathic bond + dark&troubled brooding + dem abs. She's only supposed to be 19 and has basically no social experience; stupid decisions are expected. As soon as he goes into "we can rule together" mode she has a very clear "I've made a terrible mistake" expression.

She shouldn't be crushing on him at all since only a few days ago he murdered Han, put Finn in a coma and tried to kill her or, at the very least, harm her for not joining him. Even Christen Grey never went as far as to harm Ana's friends or family (he's still a horrible excuse for a human being but still) and yet Rey is willing to risk her own life with no given reason. Even Asami hesitated on being friends with Korra (her eventually girlfriend) when she accused Hiroshi of being an Equalist.

I am a romantic, I love cheesy love stories like The Last Naruto The Movie, The Princess Bride and Wall-E and I will admit that Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley have good chemistry but the reason these two basically fall for each other is stupid. They spend LESS then 3 days together (half an hour at most) and, again, Kylo did some pretty terrible things to Rey and, more importantly, her surrogate family, but she starts thinking he can be redeemed on the grounds that he's being nice to her?

Even Luke needed time to process the fact that Vader was his father and he was told by Obi-Wan, the man Vader killed, that Anakin was a good man and a dear friend. So far, Rey has not heard One positive thing about Ben Solo before her turned to the dark side even by Kylo himself and, again, I'm re-watching TLJ and there is no reason given in the film as to why Rey suddenly thinks that Kylo is worth redeeming.

Even Adora had a reason to want to redeem Catra in the first three seasons of She-Ra despite all the horrible things she did because they've known each other since they were children and Catra does have her more positive traits and kinder moments. The Force Bond only allows them to converse with one another, there is nothing in the film or the comic or novel or the deleted scenes that suggests that it does anything besides that.

For me this whole thing comes off more like a badly written Harlequin Romance and I find it to be just as poorly thought out as Makorra If Not WORSE!

By coincidence I watched TLJ again a couple of weeks back - a friend hadn't seen it, I brought over the dvd and we watched it together. There's still no getting past how it fails to worldbuild on the First Order the way it should have (outside of Kylo Ren specifically) - that's work that I think needed to be done, and since TLJ didn't do it Ep9's going to have to, which isn't really a job the conclusion of a trilogy is supposed to have to devote time to on top of everything else. And Rose's kiss comes out of nowhere and isn't supported, unless you just assume that she was a bit concussed from the crash as well (not that I don't totally buy her thinking yeah I'd smash that through the floor on short notice with Finn, but slow down girl).

But for the rest, I feel like I warmed to it all a little more than I had previously. I had used to regard it as an interesting story built around a couple of good arcs - Rey and Poe both maturing in their own ways, basically - but not necessarily the best at expressing its ideas. This time round, maybe just because I've had plenty of time to turn those ideas around in my head and look at them from all angles, I found much more clarity in the script than I'd given it credit for. Ideally a film would manage that cold, rather than me having to have done some legwork to be in the right place for it - I think Holdo in particular needed to have more of her POV shown after the fact (but before the ram, obviously), her little 'Yeah I like Poe actually' moment with Leia I don't think really prompts the reexamination of her actions that it needs to in order to properly land Poe's arc with regards to her. But I had that perspective thoroughly cemented in my head going in this time, and it really lifted the story. Likewise Finn and Rose's detour to Canto Bight, similar reason and result (in that case, I think what maybe needed to be done was split Finn and Rose off from the fleet sooner, maybe in the initial evacuation, so they could arrive at Canto sooner and the place be developed with more nuance over a longer stay).

I'm pretty happy with it overall - flawed, but of the films I'd only really rate the OT and Rogue One above it. It's put me in a good place looking forward to Ep9.

Winter wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:24 pm

mathewgsmith wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:09 pm I got the impression that Rey was crushing hard on Kylo and made a stupid decision thinking she could "fix" him. Force-created empathic bond + dark&troubled brooding + dem abs. She's only supposed to be 19 and has basically no social experience; stupid decisions are expected. As soon as he goes into "we can rule together" mode she has a very clear "I've made a terrible mistake" expression.

She shouldn't be crushing on him at all since only a few days ago he murdered Han, put Finn in a coma and tried to kill her or, at the very least, harm her for not joining him. Even Christen Grey never went as far as to harm Ana's friends or family (he's still a horrible excuse for a human being but still) and yet Rey is willing to risk her own life with no given reason. Even Asami hesitated on being friends with Korra (her eventually girlfriend) when she accused Hiroshi of being an Equalist.

"Friends" is a strong word. She had known Han for what, an hour? If that? The most he was to her is "Chewie's friend". She'd known Finn for about half an hour longer. They were more "some guys she met once" than anything.

Even if we're assuming that we saw 100% of every shared vision Rey and Kylo shared, she knows him better than anyone she's met off Jakku with the possible exception of Chewbacca. It's been years for us waiting between movies, but in-universe from the beginning of TFA to the end of TLJ is something like three days.

mathewgsmith wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:58 am Even if we're assuming that we saw 100% of every shared vision Rey and Kylo shared, she knows him better than anyone she's met off Jakku with the possible exception of Chewbacca.

Does she though? That's an honest question, does Rey actually know anything more about Kylo Ren at the end of TLJ then she does Han or Finn, or even Luke? And again, he spends most of Awakens being PRETTY Terrible to her. Even ignoring that she hasn't known Han or Finn for that long the fact remains they were first people that have been nice to her. Kylo even states that Rey sees Han as something of a father (a father she's spent less 10 minutes with but still it was stated in the movie so it "counts") and she outright calls Finn her friend.

And yet TLJ either sweeps these points under the rug (Han) or just flat out ignores them (TLJ NEVER mentions that Kylo is the reason that Finn is in a coma at the start of the movie). Join me in a thought experiment, I am the viewer who has just seen the film and you are Rey and I ask you the following questions as to why you have decided to redeem Kylo.

These are the points I bring up that only a few days ago, Kylo Ren killed Han right in front of you, that he put Finn in a coma and you've learned over the course of the these two movies that he also killed everyone in Luke's Jedi school who wouldn't join him. As Rey, what are your justification/reasoning for defending Kylo Ren's actions for all these crimes by Only using what is stated to be the case In Universe?