Sfdebris.net

We all have one, films, show, games, comics and novels that we feel have great but is undeniably flawed. I'm not talking about guilty pleasures with stories that are so bad that they come around to some kind of good (Jim Carry's Grinch), or stories that are underrated and as good as any main stream hit (The Tyranny of King Washington) I mean a story that has themes, characters and plots that are honestly good but have some sort of flaw that keeps it from being seen as great as others.

Stories like Hook, The Star Wars Prequels, The Legend of Korra and the Kingdom Hearst Series. These are stories that have some REALLY noticeable issues, (overly cheesy second half, weak dialogue, weak romance (until Books 3 and 4) and the most convoluted plot I've ever seen) but have such passion and even a lot of effort that many can't help but enjoy them, at least a little.

So, what are some of your favorite flawed classics?

As an afficiando and collector of B-Pictures from the 1950s and 60s, I suppose I have more than a few. But you seem to be asking for a movie I acknowledge as terrible, but love regardless. Difficult, as I find joy in a lot of things earnestly and can't really bring myself to consider them guilty pleasures. I feel no guilt liking them.

I suppose you mean, there's enough love I can see in the material that whatever flaws I can't deny are overshadowed? Well, if a bunch of people can do that for something like Cats, which doesn't deserve it, and more can do it for Birds of Prey, which while I haven't see clearly has struck a chord with its audience despite its treatment of one specific character, I suppose I can name something.

I suppose, if I must be truly honest, the first thing that fits that criteria in my mind is... Temple of Doom. I mean, even now I can't deny that it's not as good as the first movie. It leans way too hard on its clearly obvious inspiration, Gunga Din. To the point it makes a number of very glaringly obvious mistakes regarding the Hindu Religion and India itself. Both of which come off as fairly... racist. The love interest is annoying as hell no matter what you try to say about her. Short Round, while I don't hate like others do, does have a number of stereotypes imposed on him that are difficult to ignore. It just has a lot of problems, but it such a love letter to adventure cinema, and there's so many fun and cool things in it, I can't bring myself to hate it. I still love Temple of Doom, flawed as it is.

Books... well, I guess Ready Player One. I know, a lot of people really liked it when it came out, but sadly its star has faded a lot. There was something neat in its reverence for the pop culture I grew up with, but it kinda got full of itself and comes across as elitist. Gamer Culture being superior and everything, how you're looked down upon for not knowing every bit of trivia in existence. It wants to say something more but it's always held back by trying to be too much like Hitchhiker's Guide without the satire. I don't think it's nearly as hateful or sexist as some feel, but I do recognize that it's not exactly a great story. I just really liked the audiobook. Wil Wheaton is a damn good narrator and elevated the story for me overall to the point I ignored a lot of its problems.

I suppose mine is a video game. Mass Effect Andromeda.

People like to decry some broken things that came out at launch and some of the steps backward with character design. But I felt there was much there like the original Mass Effect hidden under the surface.
And bits like the turian woman that was against AI because her little sisters had been impaled during the attack on the Citadel in the first game.
Talk to the Angara about why they distrust you. And try to find resolutions to difficult conflicts. It was a good game worthy of being and having sequels. But trashed over a few glitches that were easily fixed.

Andromeda suffered from the ME3 debacle really. I don't think it was a classic but the hate it got was largely undeserved. My main criticism of it is that the plot didn't really make sense (I thought Pathfinder meant I was going to discover things but it turns out everyone else already knew about them all), and the rather samey environments. But it was a decent enough game.

Andromeda is disappointing in overarching plot, but not deficient in gameplay. I had to unlearn everything I did in Andromeda when replaying ME2, which is simply not as dynamic and fast paced as Andromeda's zippy, pop, shoot and blast action. Honestly, given my favorite class is Vanguard, it felt like it was tailored for me!

There are problems, the overall story is not nearly as exciting. The lack of quarians really hurts it for me, being they are my favorite race. I hate how all the Asari look alike, it is shockingly noticable, especially after previous games where I'm able to tell the various asari characters apart. Some of its puzzles are annoying. But I enjoy the characters enough that I don't care.

In fact, I think all of the Tempest crew are fun characters, with decent flaws and strengths that serve their personalities and stories well. I never understood people's anger at the mistakes of Liam and Peebee... that's the point... they make mistakes. And they have to grow from them. They're imperfect.

In fact, I love Peebee so much she's my go to romance option. I'm an avid defender of her character, to the point I despise any mod that seeks to remove her mask. It is a fundamental and important part of her character. She is a character who puts up walls between herself and others for fear of getting hurt. The mask is a representation of this barrier. Removing it denies that important piece of her personality. Anyone who does it only seems to do so because "I want her to look pretty!" As if the mask somehow ruins that. Dipstick, if you're that fucking shallow, you might as load up one of those Skyrim mods that turns every woman in the game into a sexed up super model who only wear string bikinis. It's a fucking black mask! And she's the only friggin Asari in this game who has a unique face! Why are you making her more bland? You wanna improve the game? Fix the other Asari in it! Leave Peebee alone!

Does Independence Day count as a classic?

I still love it even though is it a deeply flawed movie. Nevermind the 1990's Era computer even capable of linking up with an obviously superior alien computer and putting a virus or whatever in it. The one thing that gets me is that once the shields are down they attack the city Destroyer ships with missiles, they are 15 miles in diameter. That always gets me.

I really want to know what happened behind the scenes for Andromeda. My main problem was the Kett plot and the colony plot felt like they were written by different people who weren't speaking to each other. It also had a terrible case of the Kett plot not really getting started until well into act 3, and the conclusion of that one renders the colony plot moot if I'm remembering correctly.

I also caught a terrible case of "I don't care about these people", which I have never had from a Bioware game before. I actively hated Ryder from the first minute; tried both sexes in case it was the voice, but nope it was the writing. Just a useless entitled little shit who I'm not totally convinced graduated highschool on their own merits but daddy got them an important job anyway. I thought Liam's gimmick was supposed to be that he had no discernable personality (it's Mass Effect, every crew has one) right up to his loyalty mission. A lot of the minor NPCs and all of the Krogan characters were fun, though. Peebee seemed fun but I think I made a wrong choice and locked off half her content since she stopped talking to me after building the drone.

Actually this is inspiring me to finally do a second playthrough. I played through it at release, took off work for it even, and never loaded it again. I know I hated DA2 on first play but loved it on later passes, same might apply.

mathewgsmith wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:07 am I really want to know what happened behind the scenes for Andromeda. My main problem was the Kett plot and the colony plot felt like they were written by different people who weren't speaking to each other. It also had a terrible case of the Kett plot not really getting started until well into act 3, and the conclusion of that one renders the colony plot moot if I'm remembering correctly.

I also caught a terrible case of "I don't care about these people", which I have never had from a Bioware game before. I actively hated Ryder from the first minute; tried both sexes in case it was the voice, but nope it was the writing. Just a useless entitled little shit who I'm not totally convinced graduated highschool on their own merits but daddy got them an important job anyway. I thought Liam's gimmick was supposed to be that he had no discernable personality (it's Mass Effect, every crew has one) right up to his loyalty mission. A lot of the minor NPCs and all of the Krogan characters were fun, though. Peebee seemed fun but I think I made a wrong choice and locked off half her content since she stopped talking to me after building the drone.

Actually this is inspiring me to finally do a second playthrough. I played through it at release, took off work for it even, and never loaded it again. I know I hated DA2 on first play but loved it on later passes, same might apply.

Given the sort of crap Bioware has put out in recent years I think Andromeda was a warning that the company of the past was gone.

mathewgsmith wrote: ↑Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:07 am
I also caught a terrible case of "I don't care about these people", which I have never had from a Bioware game before. I actively hated Ryder from the first minute; tried both sexes in case it was the voice, but nope it was the writing. Just a useless entitled little shit who I'm not totally convinced graduated highschool on their own merits but daddy got them an important job anyway. I thought Liam's gimmick was supposed to be that he had no discernable personality (it's Mass Effect, every crew has one) right up to his loyalty mission. A lot of the minor NPCs and all of the Krogan characters were fun, though. Peebee seemed fun but I think I made a wrong choice and locked off half her content since she stopped talking to me after building the drone.

Actually this is inspiring me to finally do a second playthrough. I played through it at release, took off work for it even, and never loaded it again. I know I hated DA2 on first play but loved it on later passes, same might apply.

My question is where did you get useless, entitled and daddy got them an important job?
I felt a story/game play segregation when you had to be told to and how to use your scanner. But that was tutorial mode effectively. Both Ryders had served but had their careers cut short as their names were tarnished by their father's actions. And most of the dialog choices I had showed someone unsure they should have the job. (But shouldn't that have gone to Cora? Springs to mind.)

I didn't have much of a problem with Ryder but I did with Sam. And I'm afraid I'm not a massive Peebee fan - I wasn't much bothered with her until her mission, where she crossed the line by far too much with the escape pod. That was driving down a busy road after several drinks level of recklessness.

I liked Vetra though.