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(deep, beleaguered sigh)... Where do I begin with this? On paper using the Force as a means of healing isn't a bad idea nor is the idea. After all Star Wars games have been using it for years and no ones had a problem with it. Sure, some joked about it in the fandom that it undercut the series like when Obi-Wan didn't just use Force Heal to save Qui-Gon and it was used pretty nicely in The Mandalorian's season 1 finally... So, why do so many of us have an issue with it in Rise of Skywalker?

Couple of reasons, 1) How it's introduced in the film.

Rey just uses Force Heal like it's no big deal. There's no build up to this to her using this power, she just suddenly has this power and is able to use it with no real issue while the series as a whole makes a big deal out of using this power, even in the film itself. I could take that whole sentence and put it anywhere Rey uses a new power and it would work just as well, though I will give Rey a bit more leeway on this and just assumed she learned how to do this from the old Jedi books.

But the way Force Heal is introduced is rather lazy as she just does this new trick like it's no big deal. We have this giant monster snake that is injured, Rey touches it. It gets healed, boom. New Power introduced. It doesn't carry the weight it should with a power that's a bit of a game changer and that's likely because the filmmakers were likely told not to make a big deal out it because The Mandalorian was the one that was going to introduce it.

This is one of the major problems with the Disney Era of Star Wars, it's over reliance on supplementary material. I know Star Wars has always had a complicated relationship with it's expanded universe but before the Disney Era it never really felt like a crutch. I still feel that you can follow the story of the Prequels without needing to go through Every Comic, Novel, Game and TV Series that is even slightly tied into any of the films. You can still get a good idea of who Grievous is even if you never saw the 2D Clone Wars Series, you don't need to read or play anything related to Jango before watching Attack of the Clones and The Phantom Menace gives you a basic idea of who everyone is and what's going on.

But with Force Healing in ROS, you need to be familiar with the lore of Star Wars to know this is a thing and same goes for every other power introduced in these films because lord knows the films aren't going to tell you what's going on.

Problem #2) This under-minds the first Two Trilogies... again.

One of the biggest issues that many people have with TDST is that it's rather terrible habit of rendering the first Two Trilogies completely pointless. Han and Leia getting together? They divorced before TDST even begin. Luke becoming a Jedi and rebuild the Jedi Order? Quiets after one bad choice and spends most of his life reenacting Yoda's arc from The Original Trilogy. Anakin Redeeming himself and saving his son and daughter by turning on Palpatine and bringing an end to the Empire? Palpatine didn't actually die, both his kids are dead, his grandson turned to the dark side, went through the Exact Same Character Arc that Anakin did and as such died after doing one good thing.

But Force Heal actually makes all of this worse because the whole reason Anakin fell to the Dark Side was because there was no way for him to save Padme from dying. And right here, in ROS, do we learn that there was a way to save Padme and it was a trick the Jedi's themselves knew.

As someone who actually likes the Prequels this honestly bugs me even more because it completely under-minds the whole point of Anakin's fall when ROS basically goes "Oh, hey, I have this new power that can not only heal any injury but can also BRING BACK THE DEAD!!!"

#3) The One Shot Deus Ex Machina.

One of the biggest problems with most if not all the new Force Abilities and or Tricks in the Disney Era like the Holdo Maneuver or Light Speed Skipping, that they are all tricks that can only ever be done once. The Holdo Maneuver? It's a One and a Million shot. Force Projection? It Kills the one using it. Force Chats? Only happens with the Force Dyads which are apparently more rare and more powerful then the chosen one.

And the abilities or tricks that aren't as rare or as dangerous are just glossed over. Light Speed Skipping? Oh, we just don't do it that often. Force Freeze? Oh, we just don't use it that often. Light Speed Tracking? Oh, we just don't do it that often.

And why aren't these tricks and abilities used that often? Because they break the story and make everything less engaging.

One of the arguments used in defense of TDST is that The Force has always been a Deus Ex Machina and that the tech in Star Wars is nonsense anyways so what's the Harm?

To which I say One. No The Force is NOT a Deus Ex Machina. A Deus Ex Machina is, By Its Definition, and Unexplained Power OR Event that saves a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device. One of the things that I actually like about George Lucas' handling of the Force in both the Prequels and the 3D Clone Wars series was that he always made sure there were limits to the Force. The Jedi and Sith were not invisible God Like Beings and could, in fact, be killed by regular people who were skilled enough or well equipped enough.

Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are forced to retreat when the Droid Destroyers show up, Jango Fights Obi-Wan to basically a standstill and Yoda is shown to be exhausted after his fights with Dooku and Palpatine. And the powers used in these films are ones that can, and have been, used over and over again in other stories because they don't break the story.

Force Push, Pull, Jump, Descend and levitate are all powers that have practical uses and add to the combat. Even Force Lightning has several uses outside of combat. Even what is often considered the most basic power, Force Future Vision, is something that has use outside of one or two moments.

The Force is no more a Deus Ex Machina then Bending or She-Ra is. They have their uses but they can't solve every problem. And while Deus Ex Machina's can be used in good Stories (Avatar has a bad habit of using one Deus Ex Machina per-season finally) TDST is for many not good enough to excuse the use of Deus Ex Machinas.

2) The Tech of Star Wars still needs to follow the series own lore worlds.

A New Hope "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"

ROS, "Light Speed Skipping"

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I like Star Trek as much as the next fan but as Chuck himself has pointed out the series does have a bad habit of just ignoring its own rules for the sake of the plot and while that's fine on or or two occasions but keep breaking it and it's going to just make watching the films/episodes annoying.

And just like all of these bits Force Healing is likely going to be thrown out the window in order to avoid it breaking the story the writers want to tell.

And now onto the finally point #4) Has no real plot or character relevance.

What purpose does Force Heal serve in the story of ROS? How does it serve the plot and or the characters and do these moments actually matter in the grand scheme of things?

In order of appearance over the course of the film Force Heal is used 3 times. Once when Rey uses it to heal the giant snake, one when Rey uses it to heal Kylo Ren and one when Ben uses it to heal Rey. In terms of plot... none of these moments matter. The snake doesn't do anything besides make a hole for the heroes to escape teh tunnels and they could have just found the dagger on the ship so the real purpose of Force Heal here is to just establish that it's something Rey can do.

After he is healed and makes a Heal-Face Turn (see what I did there ) Ben Solo doesn't actually do anything of relevance except get his life force drained and brings Rey back from the dead and seeing how she just sort of died it could have been Easily written that Rey just happened to not die after deflecting Palpatine's lightning back on him.

The only thing of note that Force Healing leads to is Rey and Ben's kiss and seeing how badly that was received by both shippers and none shippers I don't think it was worth it.

In She-Ra's fifth season Adora uses her healing powers to bring Catra back from the dead and in the final episode Catra admits her love for Adora which allows Adora to overcome Horde Prime's virus and heal herself and save the whole Damn Universe. It's actually a major plot point that Adora has trouble using her Healing Magic in the first season and in Season 5 it's used first to heal the girl Adora loves who has just begun her redemption arc in the hopes that she can be with her again.

Both times She-Ra's healing powers are used in Season 5 are key moments not only to the plot (Catra proves to be invaluable to the fight against Prime and saving the universe in the finally needs no explanation) and is also a vital part to both to Catra's redemption arc and to Adora's self-worth arc.

Rey healing the snake or Kylo plays no major part in her character or the plot and Ben is so irrelevant to the plot I'm honestly amazing he's even here.

So, yeah, that's my problems with Force healing in ROS. Thoughts?

I think some writers have lower standards for how to resolve plot problems in science fiction, fantasy, or science fantasy. Rey has new powers as the plot demands, like Superman, or like Voyager can pull technobabble out of their nacelles to break out of the event horizon early on.

The Doctor (Doctor Who's The Doctor, not Voyager's The Doctor) does stuff like that all the time, but the characters are, hopefully, entertaining enough that we don't care that the Doctor can save the day because all the Daleks are covered in time cooties and can be sucked into the void between worlds, or that Rose ate the TARDIS spirit and can zap Daleks. I suppose some people found the DST characters entertaining enough that the forcebabble didn't bother them.

I'm not really excusing it -- I do think it means the writing in the DST isn't as strong as the writing in the OT or the prequels, plot-wise. Lucas may have trouble with good dialog, but resolving plot points without pulling the solutions out of his... hat, he can do.

The problem, in retrospect, is with the OT. Because in the OT, the Force actually does not play as major a part as many may remember. It is used sparingly, and when it is used, it is always used for key plot moment: Obi Wan sensing the deaths on Alderaan, Obi Wan talking to Luke from the grave, lifting the X-Wing, Luke pulling his saber to him on Hoth, Vader strangling a guy, the Emperor trying to convert Luke.

I cannot think of a single gratuitous use of the Force in the OT. The removal of any of these scenes would functionally hurt the narrative.

But from the Prequels on, The Force is treated as a way to make superheroes. It has shifted from a narrative device into the equivalent of the Captain America serum. You could half of the instances of the Force from the Prequels and still have the same story. And sometimes, its overzealous use of the Force even created plot holes, such as the Jedi super speed use in the opening of TPM and then never used again, even when it would have saved the day - such as running between those timed force fields when Qui Gon was fighting Darth Maul.

I do not say this to insult what has come after the OT for once, merely to document the Flanderization of the Force and why if you apply the Force of today with the Force of then, they are incompatible concepts.

I missed these threads.

The way I fix this in my head-canon, and which has some basis in the EU, is that there's the Force the mystical field of energy with the Light/Dark side etc and then are Force powers specific mechanical ways in which characters use the Force.

And here is the crux Force Powers (FP) can be divided into two categories:

a) universal: telekinesis, enhanced reflexes, enhanced senses etc

b) inborn talents: battle meditation, psychometry, healing, force dyads/force bonds

Any character who has the Force has the universal ones or can learn them, people who are Force sensitive have better reflexes by default without trying likewise they can learn telekinesis but it has to be consciously sought out.

Likewise we hear of people learning, discovering, inventing new FP these are most of the time universal ones anyone who has the Force (or are strong enough in the Force) could learn these even if some of them are really obscure or difficult to learn.

Then there are the inborn talents, you either have them or you don't you might be the greatest Force master but if you weren't born with the gift of psychometry you're not going to do it.

And we do have in the EU a large number of these characters, X master has the unique gift of psychometry, Y jedi is average but their visions are more accurate than anyone else, Bastilla is important because she is a prodigy with battle meditation.

Basically writers can preserve the continuity by just making the power they want to insert as a inborn-talent as opposed to a universal FP.

You might say this is a cheat but I see this as allowing cool new powers without breaking the series.

To put it into Dungeons and Dragons terms:

People are upset because they assume FP work like wizard spells it's just about learning it and any wizard could do it, I propose the problematic stuff is actually more like sorcerer spells but you have to accept that fluff that sorcerers in-universe don't chose their spells (obviously players do but in fiction the players would be the writers)

Eh, the original kep introducing new aspects of the force all the time. Force ghosts, levitating objects, visions of the future, psychic links, and lightning blasts didn't exist in the first movie, they got added later.

In the context of "we've have 40+ years of this universe" yeah its a weird new power, but in the context of a few films its fine... its even been in the secondary media for ages. Now it'll be ingrained into everything that comes after and eventually it'll just be normal power set part of the mythos and its fine.

RobbyB1982 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:29 pm Eh, the original kep introducing new aspects of the force all the time. Force ghosts, levitating objects, visions of the future, psychic links, and lightning blasts didn't exist in the first movie, they got added later.

In the context of "we've have 40+ years of this universe" yeah its a weird new power, but in the context of a few films its fine... its even been in the secondary media for ages. Now it'll be ingrained into everything that comes after and eventually it'll just be normal power set part of the mythos and its fine.

Here's a quick question, how often has Superman used his abilities to travel back in time via flying around the planet counterclockwise? Or how often has he used his ability to create a energy shield that he can use as a net to carry people to safety while in space? Or he's ability to repair walls his his eyes, or his telekinesis? Or his telepathy? Or any power that isn't Heat Vision, Freeze Breath, Super Speed, Super Strength or Flight.

Many of those powers are one shot uses because the writers wanted to get to a certain destination and later writers didn't even bothering mentioning them because they broke the story They wanted to tell. And please note, I like Superman the Movie and I adore All-Star Superman where the first two abilities I mentioned came from.

And I would recommend both those stories to anyone who wanted to get into Superman as they do a fantastic job at capturing his character. But those powers are something that later writers and fans ignore because they have no baring on the characters and even less impact on the mythos of the series.

The Powers introduced in the Original Trilogy and the Prequels and even the Thrawn Trilogy are powers that have uses both in plot and in character and don't risk breaking the story. Battle Mediation, for example, is something that many writers have used after it was introduced back in TTT because it was something that fit the nature of the Force and added an extra layer to the threat the heroes faced.

Force Bonds are actually rather interesting as they were technically introduced in The Empire Strikes Back, fleshed out further in TTT but not really fully explored until later books and novels. Force bonds allowed writers to explore the lore of the Force by using it as a means to explore characters by deepening their relationships in a way that couldn't normally be done as characters could now have accesses to each others personal feelings and, to a less extent, their thoughts.

The Last Jedi did a pretty good job at exploring the idea of using a Force Bond to communicate but never really did anything with it besides that as both TLJ and ROS showed that it was just used as a means for Rey and Kylo to talk to one another, nothing more.

Mara's bond with the Emperor and later Luke gave us two different takes on how Force Bonds could be used. With The Emperor we saw him use his Bond with Mara and his other Assassins as a means to further extend his powers and we saw how Palpatine misused his Bond with the Hands of the Emperor could be seen as something akin to emotional abuse. By contrast, Mara's bond with Luke allowed her to form a healthy relationship with someone who saw her as an equal and helped her develop more as a person.

Over with Force Projections while it was used a few times in the Old EU it was very rare for that to happen as many writers just saw it as a gimmick that made little sense and was ignored as often as possible. After TLJ FP hasn't even been mentioned by anyone and because Star Wars already possesses Hologram Communication Tech FP has no real use outside of being a glorified decoy.

By point is, if a power can break the story or has a less lethal option odds are good it's going to be ignored in latter stories if not out right mocked and called a 1 and a Million shot.

Also in She-Ra, her power to heal was established well ahead of when it would be used in season five with it first coming up in the 4th episode of the series.

Draco Dracul wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:20 am Also in She-Ra, her power to heal was established well ahead of when it would be used in season five with it first coming up in the 4th episode of the series.

And again, the fact that Adora actually had trouble learning how to use healing and I don't think she got the handle of it until the end of the first season. Rey, can now just do it with no real issue.

The force users in SW have always been kinda disappointing. People go on and on about how great they are, how powerful they are. The Jedi and Sith are described as something like the irresistible force and the unmovable object yet they rarely seem to do anything a normal soldier couldn't do with the right equipment. So what is the big deal?

HelloFutureMe on Youtube talks about 'hard magic systems' versus 'soft magic systems.' The basic difference is that a hard magic system has clearly defined rules in place that can be bent but never broken; this allows it to be used throughout the story without breaking the suspension of disbelief, provided the writers follow their own rules. A soft magic system has almost no rules at all, so the writers can do anything they want, provided they use it sparingly.

The problem with the force is that it tends to flip between the two, depending on the writer. One story will have something like force healing as the culmination of a characters story arc, and so it makes sense. Then the next writer will have someone going around raising the dead almost at will, just because they can.