Sfdebris.net

So, one comment I've heard from fans of The Last Jedi is that their interpretation of TLJ was that one of the major points that film was trying to make was that the Jedi needed to end and that something new was/needed to rise in it's place. I get what they mean by that and it's a completely valid opinion and one I even kinda agree with... from a certain point of view.

However! I don't agree with the notion that the Jedi on the whole was going to be cast aside and replaced by something completely different and the reason for this is simply and one I can sum up in 4 words. Blue and Red Superman... Okay let me elaborate.

During the 90's DC Comics made a big push to change the Man of Steel into the Blue Man of Steel. With a new design, new powers and a slightly altered personality I think, it's been years since I read up on Blue S. DC Made a bit deal about how this was going to be the New Superman and that he was going to stay that way forever and how the old Superman was never coming back. This New Superman who was to replace the old Superman (even though they were the same character) lasted for about 4 months before DC changed him back when they realized No One liked the idea.

Now Blue and Red Superman have returned a number of times in the following years, most notably in DC Rebirth where but it's never treated as that important to the Superman Mythos, even if the story around B&R is good. The Reason Blue and Red Superman never caught on, besides the story they were introduced in just being okay, was because it just wasn't Superman.

It's like when writers try to make Superman all dark and edgy. Sometimes it works, most of the time it's treated with annoyance because it just doesn't fit the character, in addition to many of those stories not being very good.

And that leads into the next point, B&R Superman just aren't as marketable as Classic Superman. Superman in his classic Red and Blue Outfit and everyone knows who he is, put him in a outfit that barely resembles his usual design it's going to, and did, discourage fans who have been a fan of the character and his series for years. A character who has had some of the most critically successful stories in comics, TV and films in pop-culture.

Last month mentioned who I felt how She-Ra and the Princesses of Power might alter future She-Ra/He-Man series. I felt that in future adaptations Adora and Catra will likely be depicted as friends turned enemies before becoming friends again and than finally becoming lovers and that Adora's original love interests Bow and Sea Hawk will likely be depicted as just friends with none of them having any real romantic interest in each other.

Part of that is due to just how well received Catra and Adora's relationship ended up being which was bolstered by just how well rounded both characters were. I know many fans of the Original She-Ra series who have begun to ship OG Catra and Adora despite the fact that the two never showed any romantic interest in each other because fans of the Original series ended up loving the relationship they had in the reboot series.

In fact, the Reboot has begun to outshine the Original series with many being surprised that Catra isn't a Catgirl in the Original series and that she and Adora are Just nemeses. They aren't surprised that the two don't have any romantic tension, (this IS a show that was released in the 80's) but they are surprised that the two don't have a connection that is more like the one in the reboot.

A series mythos can, and often need to change as time goes on. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are all Very Different from how they all started. Batman, for example, use to wield a gun in his early days. And not just any gun, but the Gun that Killed His Parents. That's something Modern day Batman would be repulsed by as he has a No Gun Policiy which extends to almost every member of the Batfamily with Alfred and Jason Todd being the ONLY exceptions. Superman was more willing to hurt his opponents in a fight while Superman today Holds back as much as possible because he doesn't want to risk doing any serious damage, even to his most hated enemy. Wonder Woman's originally lost her powers if she was tied up by a man... No really, that was thing. Google it.

In the Original EU when Luke rebuild the Jedi Order he made a number of changes to said Order as shown in this video here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij5LecFWgAo

So, I agree that the Jedi Order needed to change and given the vagus of the Prophecy it could be interpreted that Anakin's true purpose was to bring an end to the Old Orders of the Jedi AND the Sith so both could be reborn as they are seen in later Legend Stories. But as to the Jedi and the Sith being wiped out and being replaced by something completely different? It's never going to happen because Jedi and Sith are as engraved into Popular Consciousnesses as Superman in his Classic Red and Blue Outfit. And given the mixed reception of TLJ and the Disney Sequel Trilogy as a whole odds are good that No One will Ever want to get rid of the Jedi anymore then they would want the New Blue and Red Superman.

Winter wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:34 amAnd given the mixed reception of TLJ and the Disney Sequel Trilogy as a whole odds are good that No One will Ever want to get rid of the Jedi anymore then they would want the New Blue and Red Superman.

This is the fundamental problem with Star Wars, comic books, and I'd say, most pop culture fiction. It could very well be inherent to pop culture fiction that makes it that.

It always reminds me of how kids play. Like Cowboys and Indians. Everyone loves when the game is going and they don't want it to end, so it keeps repeating each time it's played over and over, because what is loved cannot be let go. The only difference is that is a silly kids game, not a sizeable body of fiction.

While in the 80s it might not have been the case, but it was cemented by the 90s that all people wanted of Star Wars was space fighter battles and lightsabre duels over and over, that is what they got, and they fail to realize how disappointing that is.

With that said, I disagree with the idea that the Jedi have to end and such nonsense. That is ignoring the fundamental problem and just treating how worn out the Force matter is as the cause of Star Wars' problems. It's not. One issue is that SW started off as a small fun little series of adventure movies and has gotten blown out of proportion. Lucas might have wanted to develop them further, but he didn't and that restricted the canvas. Now, SW is left long becoming a quart shoved into a pint creatively.

One can very much see that in how most anything Star Wars adheres what was seen or done in the OT, if not the first movie by itself. It's always Force users dueling and talking deep, space battles, bounty hunters, smugglers, small vessels escaping from large ones, infiltrationing of enemies strongholds, etc, and always done in a very "Star Warsy" way every time.

Beastro wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:36 pm

Winter wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:34 amAnd given the mixed reception of TLJ and the Disney Sequel Trilogy as a whole odds are good that No One will Ever want to get rid of the Jedi anymore then they would want the New Blue and Red Superman.

This is the fundamental problem with Star Wars, comic books, and I'd say, most pop culture fiction. It could very well be inherent to pop culture fiction that makes it that.

It always reminds me of how kids play. Like Cowboys and Indians. Everyone loves when the game is going and they don't want it to end, so it keeps repeating each time it's played over and over, because what is loved cannot be let go. The only difference is that is a silly kids game, not a sizeable body of fiction.

While in the 80s it might not have been the case, but it was cemented by the 90s that all people wanted of Star Wars was space fighter battles and lightsabre duels over and over, that is what they got, and they fail to realize how disappointing that is.

With that said, I disagree with the idea that the Jedi have to end and such nonsense. That is ignoring the fundamental problem and just treating how worn out the Force matter is as the cause of Star Wars' problems. It's not. One issue is that SW started off as a small fun little series of adventure movies and has gotten blown out of proportion. Lucas might have wanted to develop them further, but he didn't and that restricted the canvas. Now, SW is left long becoming a quart shoved into a pint creatively.

One can very much see that in how most anything Star Wars adheres what was seen or done in the OT, if not the first movie by itself. It's always Force users dueling and talking deep, space battles, bounty hunters, smugglers, small vessels escaping from large ones, infiltrationing of enemies strongholds, etc, and always done in a very "Star Warsy" way every time.

I pretty much agree, with the large gap between the Original Trilogy and both the Prequel and Sequel Trilogy’s and the overwhelming amount of beta material that many considered cannon, both Prequel and Sequel Trilogy’s had unreasonably high expectations that even without their flaws could not reach.

Because of this what should be a series of fun space opera films was inevitable hated on, and that hate is blown out of proportion by people who where expecting a one to one translation of the beta material, people who’s imagination of what these films should be not being met, and the online discussions taking both of these and inflaming the unjustified hate to a ridiculous level.

I do find it ironic that the running theme of the Star Wars franchise is to be selfless instead of selfish, and that no matter how justified one thinks it is to never given into fear and hatred, and yet has bred the most selfish and hate filled people you could imagine, when you can compare a click-bait YouTube channel or a Twitter post to Annie Wilkes, I think its time to ask ourselves if this is really worth getting angry about, and do we really want to look back on ourselves in ten years time and see all this hate?

Link8909 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:30 amI do find it ironic that the running theme of the Star Wars franchise is to be selfless instead of selfish, and that no matter how justified one thinks it is to never given into fear and hatred, and yet has bred the most selfish and hate filled people you could imagine, when you can compare a click-bait YouTube channel or a Twitter post to Annie Wilkes, I think its time to ask ourselves if this is really worth getting angry about, and do we really want to look back on ourselves in ten years time and see all this hate?

They want to hold onto something that can only be appreciated by passing away and being fondly remembered, like being a kid playing Cowboys and Indians (Or Colonial Marines and Aliens for me).

This from Alec Guinness is apt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHYTbxJeHd8

I will add though that this doesn't let Disney (or other companies) off the hook, as it's clear they are trying to pander to that desire for "good old Star Wars" (And Star Trek, and whatever the hell they're putting out) delivered in a new box.

Whatever the nuances are, I can only feel that they are approaching it dead wrong whether it's simply as soulless rehashing or trying to do what TLJ tried and kill some sacred cows. To properly revivify something like this requires the right mix of new and old, and above all, it all keeping in the spirit of the original work. Star Wars under the hands of Disney never will, either because they'll never allow it, or sadly, because they simply cannot comprehend something like that now so consumed with return on investment.

Beastro wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:53 am

Link8909 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:30 amI do find it ironic that the running theme of the Star Wars franchise is to be selfless instead of selfish, and that no matter how justified one thinks it is to never given into fear and hatred, and yet has bred the most selfish and hate filled people you could imagine, when you can compare a click-bait YouTube channel or a Twitter post to Annie Wilkes, I think its time to ask ourselves if this is really worth getting angry about, and do we really want to look back on ourselves in ten years time and see all this hate?

They want to hold onto something that can only be appreciated by passing away and being fondly remembered, like being a kid playing Cowboys and Indians (Or Colonial Marines and Aliens for me).

This from Alec Guinness is apt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHYTbxJeHd8

I will add though that this doesn't let Disney (or other companies) off the hook, as it's clear they are trying to pander to that desire for "good old Star Wars" (And Star Trek, and whatever the hell they're putting out) delivered in a new box.

Whatever the nuances are, I can only feel that they are approaching it dead wrong whether it's simply as soulless rehashing or trying to do what TLJ tried and kill some sacred cows. To properly revivify something like this requires the right mix of new and old, and above all, it all keeping in the spirit of the original work. Star Wars under the hands of Disney never will, either because they'll never allow it, or sadly, because they simply cannot comprehend something like that now so consumed with return on investment.

That is an understandable and fair point, admittedly I think a lot of the "drama" behind the scenes is either over hyperbolised or outright made up by those YouTube click-bait channels that have a hate boner for these new shows and films and will say anything to make them look bad, and I do think that the creative teams behind these works really do have a passion for what they are doing, but I do get how you can see these new shows and films as soulless compared to the older works, especially under corporations like Disney and CBS that do care more about finances and investments, but I personally do believe the people actually going out and writing, filming, acting, editing and every other stage of production of these new works do care about the craft.

I don't agree, and don't think Superman compares to Star Wars well.

Superman has a good foundation in mainstream America. The vast majority of boys were fans of Classic Superman, and even now as mainstream adults, they still have a special spot for old sup.

Star Wars only has the foundation of Geek America. Mainstream Adults, while they might have liked Star Wars as a kid, now see it as silly.

In any case the Original Idea: That there is One Force and it's Good, and there is an aberration OF THAT Force known as the Dark Side is not one acceptable to most in today's social political climate. The very idea that there is "one good right way" is offensive to a great many people: they think whatever they think on a whim should be "the way". So Jedi good and right vs Sith evil and wrong does not work for too many people.

So over the last ten years at least has come the idea that there are "two" Forces: the light force and the dark force. Both equal and opposite...and neither is right or wrong. And it finally made it into the movies....starting with TFA.

And unlike superman, I think the majority of the Star Wars fans...that also think that way....won't have any problem with the Force changing into something more socially politically correct.

Zargon wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:48 pm So over the last ten years at least has come the idea that there are "two" Forces: the light force and the dark force. Both equal and opposite...and neither is right or wrong. And it finally made it into the movies....starting with TFA.

I wouldn't say that. I'd say that many people looked on the Force in upfront Dualistic terms with the Force itself as an indifferent, neutral power. They were thrown by the reveal that the Light side was the natural and good one rather than one side of two requiring equilibrium. Lucas didn't help matters introducing his Chosen One stuff in the Prequels using wording that implied this.

That goes back longer than ten years. KOTOR 2 very much touches on this with Kreia's discourse criticizing the Light side as all good by highlighting the shallow nature of Star Wars morality that sees simple good acts as good which ignores the larger picture, such as that sometimes, people need to suffer and learn to do things on their own to grow and that help undermines their ability to do that.

What I see in this disconnect is the fact that a simple action adventure series of films began to be taken as having a deeper outlook than it actually did. People want more from Star Wars religion and philosophy, but there isn't anything there.

Zargon wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:48 pm I don't agree, and don't think Superman compares to Star Wars well.

Superman has a good foundation in mainstream America. The vast majority of boys were fans of Classic Superman, and even now as mainstream adults, they still have a special spot for old sup.

Star Wars only has the foundation of Geek America. Mainstream Adults, while they might have liked Star Wars as a kid, now see it as silly.

I've heard this argument before, against Star Wars, Superman, Star Trek, DC comics, Marvel Comics, Tomb Raider, Harry Potter, ad infinitum. DC comics got hit with this same argument right before the New 52 Launched AND Right Before the DC Rebirth Launched. Doctor Who has been hit with this argument so many times I've lost count with many times it happening in the same Decade with many people, including the series own executive producers, saying that the series is just a silly kids show that isn't seen as anything that special outside of the geek culture.

Superman, is practically the poster child of this argument. Every time someone tries to write him a more crime and angsty way, and I Mean Every Time, this is the sort of argument that is used to justify the change.

"Superman, as a knight in shining armor/boy scout just isn't as mature and or as realistic as say, Batman or Marvel Comics. In order for Superman to Survive he needs to become more real and needs to be more human."

This the argument that is always used and it NEVER sticks mainly because it doesn't match the character that Superman has become and what he represents. Same thing with the Force and how the Jedi Order needs to end.

The Jedi Order isn't going to be gotten ride of anymore then Superman will be permanently turned into something he isn't. They're both just to engraved into Pop Culture. They can, and have, changed over the years but they will always be there.

Beastro wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:56 am

Zargon wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:48 pm So over the last ten years at least has come the idea that there are "two" Forces: the light force and the dark force. Both equal and opposite...and neither is right or wrong. And it finally made it into the movies....starting with TFA.

I wouldn't say that. I'd say that many people looked on the Force in upfront Dualistic terms with the Force itself as an indifferent, neutral power. They were thrown by the reveal that the Light side was the natural and good one rather than one side of two requiring equilibrium. Lucas didn't help matters introducing his Chosen One stuff in the Prequels using wording that implied this.

That goes back longer than ten years. KOTOR 2 very much touches on this with Kreia's discourse criticizing the Light side as all good by highlighting the shallow nature of Star Wars morality that sees simple good acts as good which ignores the larger picture, such as that sometimes, people need to suffer and learn to do things on their own to grow and that help undermines their ability to do that.

What I see in this disconnect is the fact that a simple action adventure series of films began to be taken as having a deeper outlook than it actually did. People want more from Star Wars religion and philosophy, but there isn't anything there.

I understand what you mean, my own personal take of the force based on what we see in the films has always been that the Force is both light and dark, both connecting to all things in the Star Wars universe, both needed and both balancing each other out, the scene in The Last Jedi where Luke is teaching Rey about the Force is the best example of this, and is one of my favorite scenes of the film myself, however it seems that while not as powerful as the light side, the dark side is more tempting with the allure of power, and in the end that power corrupts.

Which bring me to the Jedi and Sith, while the Force itself is a natural part of the Star Wars universe, it is the Jedi and Sith with their own philosophy’s that represent good and evil, the Jedi are selfless while the Sith are selfish, the Jedi are servants of the Force while the Sith make it their slave, and the Jedi never give into the temptations that lead to corruption while the Sith revel in those temptations that inevitably leads to an endless path of seeking more power.

I want to also point out however with the paragon nature of the Jedi, there has been an attended to deconstruct them not just by fans, but in official works like in The Last Jedi and Knight of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords, however personally the deconstruction of the Jedi that is presented most times has come across as villainization, that the Jedi are no better than the Sith, and a belittling of the Jedi philosophy, and that for me personally is flawed, this ignores all of the good that the Jedi have done and represent, and to use a Superman reference, this type of deconstruction is much like what The Elite tried to do with Superman, they justified their own villainous actions with quick and easy solutions while belittling Superman’s own actions, both SFDebris review of Superman Vs. The Elite and Linkara’s review of Action Comics #775 go more in depth about this kind of thinking and both able to articulated the points better than myself.

I think as well that even if a work is meant to be simplistic, I do like that people can read into a work and get more out of it, but much like the Force, there needs to be a balance to how serious we look at any works of media, and like I said my takeaway of Star Wars is one should always strive to be selfless and kind, to not give into harmful temptations or take to short cuts of life no matter how much that path can be justified, and to never give into hatred, these may seem like obvious lessons, but I’ve seen people in real life that should take these lessons to heart.

Link8909 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:13 amhowever personally the deconstruction of the Jedi that is presented most times has come across as villainization, that the Jedi are no better than the Sith, and a belittling of the Jedi philosophy, and that for me personally is flawed, this ignores all of the good that the Jedi have done and represent,

It's interesting how that developed. It goes back a ways and has literally been the driving force behind the creation of large sites, like stardestroyer.net.

Even the manner which KOTOR 2 handled it was harsh, but that is understandable given the fact that you're getting poison poured in your ear by the ultimate villain of the story. I very much prefer the Star Trek DS9 take where it loyally, but effectively criticized the Federation without just sneering at it.

Winter wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:09 am "Superman, as a knight in shining armor/boy scout just isn't as mature and or as realistic as say, Batman or Marvel Comics. In order for Superman to Survive he needs to become more real and needs to be more human."

Superman is a secular Christ figure without the Father to stand in for his powerful side and allow him to be more human. As a result, he continually gravitates towards being a god in the exercise of power and things get upset when he becomes too strong or too weak, both literally and symbolically.

This is further undermined by the fact that Superman is a North American creation, North America has a very "nice guy" concept of Christ that tends to lean away from him as a severe and demanding figure which Superman strays into doing as well. IMO, Superman would be best rendered in that harder light of Christ by being one who speaks harsh truths, expects much of others and gives off an aura of horrifying magnificence that is both reassuring and terrifying at the same time straight out of Revelation.