Sfdebris.net

Something that cosmetically at face value looks like a Fantasy story but is really Science Fiction?

I suppose the first instinct is to just argue that Clarke's Third Law is you how you achieve this. But to me more often then not that's cheating, when movies like The Box just cite that idea to justify having Magick and calling it Science I roll my eyes and stop taking the story seriously. You've fundamentally missed Clarke's point in making that law.

The reason Star Wars can't actually be called Science Fiction isn't just how fundamentally unscientific The Force is, it's also about the narrative. A lot of what the Star Wars movies are about could also be in a science fiction story, but the focus and priorities would be different.

I think Game of Thrones? I'm not particularly familiar with it, but like the first season played out methodically and I got the sense that the backdrop is that familiar through unfamiliar tones.

There's plenty of fantasy stories that bring in science fiction tropes. If you want a good line straddle, then King of Thorns has a post-apocalyptic earth where the weapons they used broke *something* fundamental, and things don't work like they used to anymore. Maybe. Maybe the main character doesn't quite understand what is going on. They set off a nuke pretty early. Pern is also a fantasy/sci-fi hybrid, but is clearly in "science fiction with fantasy aesthetic," not "fantasy with sci-fi aesthetic." Julian May's Black Trillium is another fantasy with a more science fiction base.

Something important is that fantasy fans aren't nearly as judgmental as science fiction fans. They don't really care if science fiction tropes or ideas get incorporated into fantasy. There's a small core of "well actually" science fiction fans who will complain to the heavens.

Dragonriders of Pern is probably what you are looking for.

Starts off as apparently a standard high fantasy story with dragons, but in truth the dragons are genetically engineered and the world the setting is on is actually a planet that was actually colonised by humans who wanted to live in an idealised medieval setting, with the dragons being created as a substitute for planes.

Game of Thrones isn't, because that is a story where "the magic comes back", in response to other stories like LotR where "the magic goes away".

Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere novels might fall into what you're talking about. While very clearly fantasy, with tons of magic all over the place, it fits the magic into rigorously detailed "magic systems", where channeling magical energy (called "Investiture") through certain catalysts will produce specific, predictable, and quantifiable results. The climax of the stories will often hinge on characters examining the details of the magic system and either finding new applications for it or discovering some of the underlying principles behind how it works, much like engineers trying to solve a technical problem.

And, while it hasn't been spelled out in the books yet, Sanderson has explained that the different worlds of the Cosmere are different planets within the same universe, each with slightly different gravity, atmospheric conditions, and such-like (for the Stormlight Archive, he's stated that Roshar has about 70% of Earth's gravity and a much higher amount of oxygen in the air, which is why some animals there are able to grow to such an enormous size).

Yeah I do often feel like Hard Magick Systems are a sign someone wishes they were writing Sci-Fi instead of Fantasy.

MithrandirOlorin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:07 pm Yeah I do often feel like Hard Magick Systems are a sign someone wishes they were writing Sci-Fi instead of Fantasy.

I tend to agree, especially when their basis seems very mechanical. Like City of Doors had a very well-explained magic system, but it was one with an inherently mystical origin. Same with Three Parts Dead When the magic is just basically technology (insert power source, get result) then it's a bit hard to see it as mystical in any way.

MithrandirOlorin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:19 pmThe reason Star Wars can't actually be called Science Fiction isn't just how fundamentally unscientific The Force is, it's also about the narrative. A lot of what the Star Wars movies are about could also be in a science fiction story, but the focus and priorities would be different.

This is pretty much why I suggested Game of Thrones.

I think technically if you were basing it on the science/magic dichotomy then what you're talking about would probably just be more steampunk. But yeah, sci-fi narrative to me seems more about familiarizing the futuristic unfamiliarity to tell a transformative but still innate story. That's what I feel like Game of Thrones does, and the fantasy elements are just the pieces it uses to tell that narrative.

Of course I only saw the first season and honestly don't remember anything much about dragons in the show heh.

Nerdwriter had an interesting video about how dragons impact the economy of a kingdom, but I can't find it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nerdwriter/comments/4m1hlb/game_of_thrones_why_dragons_halt_progress/

MithrandirOlorin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:07 pm Yeah I do often feel like Hard Magick Systems are a sign someone wishes they were writing Sci-Fi instead of Fantasy.

Why wishing they were writing something else, instead of exploring the idea that if magic exists then it's a natural part of the universe with its own laws and limits? (most works with magic in them have a degree of that subconciously - when the wizard says the spell he expects certain results from it). That's the whole point of speculative fiction.

Riedquat wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:44 pm

MithrandirOlorin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:07 pm Yeah I do often feel like Hard Magick Systems are a sign someone wishes they were writing Sci-Fi instead of Fantasy.

Why wishing they were writing something else, instead of exploring the idea that if magic exists then it's a natural part of the universe with its own laws and limits? (most works with magic in them have a degree of that subconciously - when the wizard says the spell he expects certain results from it). That's the whole point of speculative fiction.

I generally delineate the difference in my mind to the degree of causality or non-causality assigned to the systems.

The key distinction between magic and science is adherence to the scientific method. The scientific method makes no value judgments about what laws the universe should follow, but it does assume that the universe follows consistent laws. I.E. If you perform an experiment, someone in China performs an experiment, someone in England performs an experiment, someone in Africa performs an experiment, as long as the same initial conditions and the same experimental protocol is followed, the same results should be expected.

If a system follows these rules, it's scientific, regardless of whether it matches our understanding of science or not. On the other hand, if three people can do identical things, and get three different results, then it's non-causal. Non-causal things cannot be measured by science, because they defy science. As far as we understand it, we live in a pretty causal universe, so non-causality is not something we consider.

But as a dividing line, causal magic is very similar to "different science".