Sfdebris.net

Breaking out to avoid drift:

GreyICE wrote: ↑Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:51 pm If I say "Science fiction is literature" I am clearly saying that science fiction should be considered a form of literature instead of excluded by all the genre snobs. I am clearly not saying that Science Fiction is the only form of literature and that we should throw out Of Mice and Men or Les Miserables for not being sufficiently science fiction.

Well, I'd have to argue that this is a bad example. Literature is a genre, albeit one that crosses over other genres very often. Including all of science fiction would be silly.

I'd say it's more of a medium. I know books is a medium, but like stories of all types of genres for the most part is broadly covered by literature I thought. Whereas discrete genres like biographies and non-fiction etc... aren't as much.

Well, it depends on whether you're saying Literature -> Written Fiction vs. Literature -> Literary Fiction.

I challenge you, sir, to a wikipedia duel.

Literature, can refer to a body of written or oral work, but it commonly refers specifically to writings considered to be an art form, especially prose fiction, drama, and poetry, in contrast to academic writing and newspapers.[1] In recent centuries, the definition has expanded to now include oral literature, much of which has been transcribed.[2]

Literature, as an art form, can also include works in various non-fiction genres, such as autobiography, diaries, memoir, letters, the essay, as well as history and philosophy.[3]

So yeah I guess non-fiction is included.

My guess thinking about it after I posted was that it is more artistic in nature, and that seems to be pretty apparent by this account.

Overall, it depends on what good stories there are.

Political, History, Economics, Fanfiction, etc.

Literature is just an infant catalyst of storytelling, it has yet grown to represent our strong-ideas.

I'd say that I was using the dictionary definition in this case, e.g. "written works, especially those considered of superior or lasting artistic merit." Or we could go after the nebulous "literary fiction" idea, but boy that one is like grasping smoke.

As an aside, I do believe it's a good example because whether or not you think that science fiction overlaps with literary fiction, there's certainly no way that anyone would parse "Science fiction is literature" as "only science fiction can be literature." (you could also argue video games are not art, but you'd never parse the phrase "video games are art" as meaning "video games are the only form of art")

Well, I was comparing "All science fiction is literature" as opposed to "There exists science fiction that is literature"

TGLS wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:08 pm Well, I was comparing "All science fiction is literature" as opposed to "There exists science fiction that is literature"

That's fair as well. I think "all science fiction is literature" is definitely far too broad. Although I think trying to draw hard and fast lines around any genre is inevitably going to run you into trouble.

If we accept "literary fiction" as a classification of fiction that's character driven, often slow paced, and doesn't contain a clear plot or narrative arc (no clean three acts or beginning/middle/end) then we can more easily draw a distinction between the two, although I believe there will still be Science/Literary fiction (Dhalgren pops to mind immediately as the obvious example).

There's also the science fiction vs. speculative fiction debate, where the question is "can we even consider there to be a genre of science fiction, or are the lines too blurry to even say it's distinct from fantasy?" I tend towards there being no great way to draw the line between the two personally - I think speculative fiction is a more useful label than science fiction.