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Does anyone have an opinion on this elseworlds story?

It looks to me like a pretty direct recreation of the bulk of the Cold War.

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:17 pm Does anyone have an opinion on this elseworlds story?

It looks to me like a pretty direct recreation of the bulk of the Cold War.

I confess I missed the part where Lex Luthor won the Cold War by convincing the Soviet Union's leadership it was immoral to shrink cities and then instituted a scientific utopia he ruled for the better part of a thousand years.

Honestly, I really enjoyed Red Son but I have to say that I admit part of it is due to the fact it fits my politics pretty well and that biases me. I'm a strong anti-communist and giving a reminder of the evils of that system and its oppression is something I generally approve of. It was also a very well-designed "Evil Superman" story because the heart of the story is that Red Kal-El is motivated by his similar idealistic nobility as the mainstream one but he learned from Stalin that it's "okay" to break a few eggs to make an omlette and by a few, I mean few million.

Weirdly, I'd argue this is the best Lex Luthor story because it does establish that in a world where he was 100% right about Superman that he could channel his energies effectively to benefit the world--but he's still a son of a bitch.

Just the kind of son of a bitch history tends to admire.

The only problem I had with the movie and book is that I don't get why Wonder Woman and Lois Lane are still pining for Superman despite the fact he's lobotomizing people. He's a supervillain. He may be well-intentioned but he's a monster.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:23 pmThe only problem I had with the movie and book is that I don't get why Wonder Woman and Lois Lane are still pining for Superman despite the fact he's lobotomizing people. He's a supervillain. He may be well-intentioned but he's a monster.

Lois is just being a reporter and Wonder Woman is just being an ambassador. His first encounter with Lois is an argument on the progressive liberal side of argumentation while Wonder Woman represents The broad UN inquisition on the Soviet Union that is part of the Security Council. Who they're talking to is the brain for all intents and purposes of a massive multinational state that overts not only internal conflict but economic instability.

I think the idea is that Superman and America are a yin and yang of liberty and ideals.

Conversely in the real world though America is mostly run by overt capitalistic interests where Lex Luthor just happens to get his way in his own neighborhood. Soviet Union on the other hand is the closest real world example of Starfleet.

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:23 pmSoviet Union on the other hand is the closest real world example of Starfleet.

I confess....very few comparisons have ever left me speechless. My opinion of the Soviet Union being one of the most oppressive evil states of all time.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:34 pm

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:23 pmSoviet Union on the other hand is the closest real world example of Starfleet.

I confess....very few comparisons have ever left me speechless. My opinion of the Soviet Union being one of the most oppressive evil states of all time.

Oh so you're saying I overshot the analogy a bit?

The idea that America is just as bad as the Soviet Union is a bit classical, but it's hard for me not to view the world stage with America having unabridged moral distinction. Our own modern progressive system is picking up on the same tenets of that argument there. The conviction we're giving to our public institution over civil disparities is pretty consistent with what the UN seemed to handwave as whataboutism when the Soviets brought it up.

A bit, certainly in Red Son the point is that Superman is a stalinist who believes that any dissent is worth punishing in a horrifying manner. The big thing is that Lex Luthor is still the same psychoppathic evil monster he's always been and arguably every bit as evil as Stalin.

However, he's BETTER at it than Stalin so he doesn't need to crush so many lives to win. He wins because capitalism rewards the carrot over the stick. There's even some interesting lines in the comic that Luthor takes direct control over every dollar in the US treasury.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:14 pm A bit, certainly in Red Son the point is that Superman is a stalinist who believes that any dissent is worth punishing in a horrifying manner. The big thing is that Lex Luthor is still the same psychopathic evil monster he's always been and arguably every bit as evil as Stalin.

However, he's BETTER at it than Stalin so he doesn't need to crush so many lives to win. He wins because capitalism rewards the carrot over the stick. There's even some interesting lines in the comic that Luthor takes direct control over every dollar in the US treasury.

I think you just outlined why I can't stand this story Charles. As is usual for Mark Millar's work, there are next to no genuinely good people in this story even Wonder Woman is morally grey here. Superman does horrible things it's true but the message is blunted due to the people opposing him being just as bad or worse. As you say Lex Luthor is still the same evil so and so he always is, yet the movie seems to want me to think him winning is a happy ending, and Russian Batman is openly murdering people. In my opinion having an actually idealistic hero in opposition to Red Son Superman, Wonder Woman or Captain Marvel for example, would have made for a better story.

Also why is Superman's origin story being changed causing changes to other heroes? I mean Wonder Woman would have still found Steve Trevor washed up on the shores of Themyscira which in turn would have resulted in her coming to America, Superman landing in Russia instead of Kansas wouldn't change that. Likewise, Batman would still be Bruce Wayne in Gotham City, not some Russian rando.

While Rule of Cool is for most of that, I will say that unencumbered by Superman, Lex Luthor does make an excellent representation of unrestrained capitalism incarnate.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:10 pm While Rule of Cool is for most of that, I will say that unencumbered by Superman, Lex Luthor does make an excellent representation of unrestrained capitalism incarnate.

I think the idea of Lex Luthor becoming president in the regular lore has been overshadowed by Donald Trump actually winning the presidency. While Superman is a symbol for hope, Lex Luthor represents institutional efforts to enforce the status quo with his bigotry. That's all fine for the Republican party in general, but Donald Trump fits the bill a little too concisely.

On Supergirl Lex has become the shadow behind the throne in a Frank Underwood type of conspiracy. After all he does get to be cartoonishly destructive with his gear that way which is what the CW shows like to do.