Sfdebris.net

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us9eHNNRtiI

Currently listening.

Given the people Batman fights are usually members of organized crime or urban terrorists, I've always found this to be a ridiculous assertion.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:37 pm Given the people Batman fights are usually members of organized crime or urban terrorists, I've always found this to be a ridiculous assertion.

Well I think that they have a considerably rational discussion on the topic.

I'd say a good portion of it is tuned to Frank Miller's admittedly specific and contemporarily distinctive take on the character, if at least for its prominence as a Batman piece compared to say Year One by the same person.

Otherwise they do get into common takes leading to it which are yeah mostly dismissable as they continue.

There is a nice finale, talking about the surveillance motif in Dark Knight that echos the patriot act.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:37 pm Given the people Batman fights are usually members of organized crime or urban terrorists, I've always found this to be a ridiculous assertion.

Fits as a topic for Shives then. Why are people still watching that windbag,producing nothing but hot air?

Anyways... How do you come to the above conclusion? Sure, fascist-states are, historically, states lead by thugs and ruled by violence and usually have their roots in what would constitute terrorism today, but the difference is that the violence enacted by the state, comes from the state, the society, while the violence inherent to crime and terrorism is inherently against the state and the society.

The idea obviously stems from the fact that he takes the law into his own hands, is uber powerful to that end, and echos strongman brutality. Whether or not he's personally narrated to be a Fascist, or if Gotham is fascist, isn't precisely the point.

It's a question of whether how we regard fascism is consistent with what the Batman IP exhibits.

Any fascist piece can idolize Mussolini or Hitler before they become dictators and show a story of brute strength in more contemporary times alluding to an obvious conclusion.

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:56 pm The idea obviously stems from the fact that he takes the law into his own hands, is uber powerful to that end, and echos strongman brutality. Whether or not he's personally narrated to be a Fascist, or if Gotham is fascist, isn't precisely the point.

It's a question of whether how we regard fascism is consistent with what the Batman IP exhibits.

Any fascist piece can idolize Mussolini or Hitler before they become dictators and show a story of brute strength in more contemporary times alluding to an obvious conclusion.

The thing is that it ignores revolutionary tactics and resistance against social ills.

I like Steve Shives, don't have time to watch an hour long video right now.

I can add to the debate tho, here is Thought Slime, the most anarchist youtuber I know of, explaining his thoughts on the Batman.
https://youtu.be/73M2sq9zK-I

My personal view is that, "No, Batman is not a Fascist" but then I use the 14 points outlined by Umberto Eco, and while it is a spectrum, Batman does not do Newspeak, he is not obsessed with an imagined plot, and he is not tied up in machismo and guns. He really does not hit the points.
"Ur-Fascist"
https://web.archive.org/web/20170131155 ... r-fascism/

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:23 pm

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:56 pm The idea obviously stems from the fact that he takes the law into his own hands, is uber powerful to that end, and echos strongman brutality. Whether or not he's personally narrated to be a Fascist, or if Gotham is fascist, isn't precisely the point.

It's a question of whether how we regard fascism is consistent with what the Batman IP exhibits.

Any fascist piece can idolize Mussolini or Hitler before they become dictators and show a story of brute strength in more contemporary times alluding to an obvious conclusion.

The thing is that it ignores revolutionary tactics and resistance against social ills.

Yes. I believe they bring that up in the course of their collaborative introspection on the property. Neither Shives nor his guest speaker are really debating for the piece to be Fascist; moreso doing an audit of the material to see if it has Fascist leanings. IMO it's not so clear cut, even with what you're saying.

This is the funny reason they go into Dark Knight Returns though. It's not strongly a canon piece per say, but it's heavily indoctrinated material representing the character and influencing takes on him into the more modern age. In that story there is definitely revolutionary tactics. Resistance against social ills isn't that big of a theoretical obstacle by that point for introspective purposes.

Rocketboy1313 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:32 pm I like Steve Shives, don't have time to watch an hour long video right now.

I can add to the debate tho, here is Thought Slime, the most anarchist youtuber I know of, explaining his thoughts on the Batman.
https://youtu.be/73M2sq9zK-I

My personal view is that, "No, Batman is not a Fascist" but then I use the 14 points outlined by Umberto Eco, and while it is a spectrum, Batman does not do Newspeak, he is not obsessed with an imagined plot, and he is not tied up in machismo and guns. He really does not hit the points.
"Ur-Fascist"
https://web.archive.org/web/20170131155 ... r-fascism/

I'd assume your approach is consistent with what they go so far as to say in the video.

Honestly it probably depends on the writer. Batman has been around since 1939 and has had such a varied characterization of him that there's a fricking morality alignment chart that's all Batman



Fascism in my eyes always seems to be something people use as a general pejorative term for someone using power they don't like no matter how valid or invalid it is. So color me jaded or apathetic on Shives's opinion.