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Since the Saturday after next will be Star Trek V, I wanted to talk about the flying disaster the Enterprise-A was in that movie. Obviously, out of universe, it was meant to contribute to the humor and was used to push some of the drama. However, I've seen a few theories about why it was this way in universe. I wanted to give mine for your consideration.

I think the Enterprise-A was an attempt at a Service Life Extension Program of the Constitution-class.

The Constitution-class was almost a half century hold at this point and was (if you'll forgive the pun) outclassed. The Miranda-class was more economical to build and more easily customized for the missions suited to it. Missions that could get by with a lighter ship were being assigned to it. And then you have the new Excelsior-class becoming the new definition of a heavy cruiser and is superior to even the Constitution refit in every way. The Constitution-class was stuck in the middle. It was too large and rigid for smaller scale missions and inferior for larger scale. That's a recipe for ending up in mothballs.

However, the Constitution had something the other two classed did not, history. Not too long ago it was the backbone of Starfleet and an icon of the Federation. They literally ripped it down to the keel and rebuilt it with modern equipment in the Constitution refit to keep it relevant. While practicality would suggest allowing it retire, there would be political pressures to try to keep it active in the fleet.

So, a scheme was hatched. We take one of the surviving Constitutions, rename it after the most famous ship of the class, and install the most famous Constitution captain as her skipper. It would be refitted with the latest technology to put it almost on par with the Excelsior. This would prove it is still a valuable asset to Starfleet.

However, the reality was anything but. Unlike the first refit, they tried to integrate the new technology into the existing hull. The new systems proved unreliable without the improved infrastructure of the Excelsior designed for them. However, believing the mission to Nimbus III would be a cakewalk and the perfect chance to show faith in the venerable class was well founded, things spiraled out of control partially because of the constant system failures.

After the Nimbus III disaster, there was no doubt the Constitution-class was too old and a relic of a time long past. The Enterprise-A was stripped down to its studs to do the work of properly integrating the systems, but this was far more trouble than it was worth to do with others. The shipyards where cruiser hulls were built were also fully committed to Excelsiors. They did not even bother with cosmetics in restoring the Enterprise-A, hence the stripped down and beat up appearance of much of the interior in Star Trek VI. It would remain as a unique stalwart until its command crew announced their retirements and it was decided the ship and the class would follow them.

To add salt into the Constitution's wound would be the incredible longevity of the Miranda and Excelsior classes which would see service for almost a century including taking part in the Dominion war.

Anyway, that's why I think the Enterprise-A was a flying disaster. Thoughts?

Nah, the real disaster was the movie.

Captain Crimson wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:57 am Nah, the real disaster was the movie.

That's true. That's so true.

The age of the Constitution being a problem would go on to be quite funny considering how many models they reused in DS9 and TNG. And that is before we get into the Klingon warship. It was in ENT, so 200 years old by DS9?

Imo, the issue was that the Constitution was designed only for a five year mission and tended to see a lot of heavy wear in that time. Half a century of service theoretically means ten five year missions. That's a lot.

clearspira wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:18 am The age of the Constitution being a problem would go on to be quite funny considering how many models they reused in DS9 and TNG. And that is before we get into the Klingon warship. It was in ENT, so 200 years old by DS9?

Imo, the issue was that the Constitution was designed only for a five year mission and tended to see a lot of heavy wear in that time. Half a century of service theoretically means ten five year missions. That's a lot.

IIRC, the USS Republic is still around in the latter 24th century, and serving as a training vessel for SF cadets. My only question would be if it had been refitted, since it was mentioned in TOS, not the TOS movies.

EDIT: Oh wow, I made it to a thousand posts. Break out the champagne! Tell me, what sort of privileges does being a captain entail? Since I'm already Captain Crimson, this just makes it official.

Captain Crimson wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:02 pm Oh wow, I made it to a thousand posts. Break out the champagne! Tell me, what sort of privileges does being a captain entail?

You get to be a captain at 500 posts.

--

The copy-and-paste fleet might be mocked, but well, CGI will ensure that future Star Trek armadas aren't going to always bring back the Miranda and Excelsior because they spent a lot of money on the models.

I suppose the Excelsior design could have been influenced heavily by failures in refitting the Constitution-class, and thus created something that accidentally out lasted the later Ambassador class. And the Mirandas were kept around as an overgunned frigate or something (at least until they brought in the California-class, possibly even later).

EDIT: Or maybe Scotty was exaggerating when he said everything it was broken.

Al-1701 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:25 am ...
To add salt into the Constitution's wound would be the incredible longevity of the Miranda and Excelsior classes which would see service for almost a century including taking part in the Dominion war.

Anyway, that's why I think the Enterprise-A was a flying disaster. Thoughts?

TGLS wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:38 pm The copy-and-paste fleet might be mocked, but well, CGI will ensure that future Star Trek armadas aren't going to always bring back the Miranda and Excelsior because they spent a lot of money on the models.

I suppose the Excelsior design could have been influenced heavily by failures in refitting the Constitution-class, and thus created something that accidentally out lasted the later Ambassador class. And the Mirandas were kept around as an overgunned frigate or something (at least until they brought in the California-class, possibly even later).

EDIT: Or maybe Scotty was exaggerating when he said everything it was broken.

Really interesting ideas, I've not been that knowledgeable about Trek Tech beyond the basics, so I've always wondered why the Constitution-Class was retired what felt very early, while ships like the Excelsior and Miranda-Classes lasted for a full century, while I get that they would stop building Constitutions, I'd image that it would have been simple to incorporate the newest tech into currently existing ships and re-class them for different roles in the fleet.

Heck, I'd image that if Scotty got his way in The Search For Spock and the Enterprise got a refit, I could see her lasting past when the Enterprise-B was launched, though I'd also image that with all the adventures she's been on adds more mileage so to speak.

Honestly ships like the Excelsior and Miranda being in the Dominion War always bugged me, especially when you see Miranda's getting one-shot (and apparently all the ships having their shields down as well), I get the idea that they needed every ship they could muster, but it's like a Spitfire going up against a Tempest Super-Fighter Jet, I'd think it'll be better to hang the older ships back in a support role.

I'd does seem however that Starfleet has learn some lessons, not only having the California-class be the 24th Century Miranda (same role, none of the age), but even having the mass fleet that is the Inquiry-Class, that can be a rapid deployed fleet for emergencies, so rather than a fleet of hodgepodge ships that were merely the closest in-range regardless of their roles and status, they now have a fleet made up of the best ships on stand by that will be capable of handling the emergency.

Link8909 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:58 pm Honestly ships like the Excelsior and Miranda being in the Dominion War always bugged me, especially when you see Miranda's getting one-shot (and apparently all the ships having their shields down as well), I get the idea that they needed every ship they could muster, but it's like a Spitfire going up against a Tempest Super-Fighter Jet, I'd think it'll be better to hang the older ships back in a support role.

I'd does seem however that Starfleet has learn some lessons, not only having the California-class be the 24th Century Miranda (same role, none of the age), but even having the mass fleet that is the Inquiry-Class, that can be a rapid deployed fleet for emergencies, so rather than a fleet of hodgepodge ships that were merely the closest in-range regardless of their roles and status, they now have a fleet made up of the best ships on stand by that will be capable of handling the emergency.

You also have to remember the Federation really hadn't been challenged until the 2360's after making peace with the Klingons. There was not really a pressure to keep the fleet fully modern. They were still using Mirandas because they never bothered to build a replacement like the Excelsior was meant to replace the Constitution. And the Excelsior was the last true "wartime" class they developed as well, and had been reduced to more of a support role before the Dominion War. Most the developments at the time were developing the big boys like the Galaxy.

The Ambassador's swift demise is a puzzle. Perhaps it proved to be a dead end design, not superior enough to the Excelsior to be worth the extra cost. If only a few were built, they would be rare.

The 2360's and 70's seemed to serve as the catalyst for a Cambrian Explosion of starship designs. They finally replaced the Miranda with the California. They created ships designed more for war like the Defiant and Saber. Big got bigger and sleeker with the Sovereign. More emphasis was put on mid-sized ships like the Steamrunner and its ilk. As you said, the Federation came out of the Dominion War with a fully modernized fleet. It's like how the U.S. fleet coming out of World War II was a much different beast than the one that went in.

Al-1701 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:31 am You also have to remember the Federation really hadn't been challenged until the 2360's after making peace with the Klingons. There was not really a pressure to keep the fleet fully modern. They were still using Mirandas because they never bothered to build a replacement like the Excelsior was meant to replace the Constitution. And the Excelsior was the last true "wartime" class they developed as well, and had been reduced to more of a support role before the Dominion War. Most the developments at the time were developing the big boys like the Galaxy.

The Ambassador's swift demise is a puzzle. Perhaps it proved to be a dead end design, not superior enough to the Excelsior to be worth the extra cost. If only a few were built, they would be rare.

The 2360's and 70's seemed to serve as the catalyst for a Cambrian Explosion of starship designs. They finally replaced the Miranda with the California. They created ships designed more for war like the Defiant and Saber. Big got bigger and sleeker with the Sovereign. More emphasis was put on mid-sized ships like the Steamrunner and its ilk. As you said, the Federation came out of the Dominion War with a fully modernized fleet. It's like how the U.S. fleet coming out of World War II was a much different beast than the one that went in.

Absolutely true, the Borg was definitely a wake-up call for Starfleet, and I dread to think how the Dominion War would have gone if they hadn't had that kick in the rear and developed ship more suited for combat.

Well, without all the bashing of "old is wrong and bad" and "new is right and good".

It seems much more simple: The Enterprise-A was simply rushed into service. The Federation wanted to give the new Captain Kirk a classic Constitution class ship. So they garbed the one that was close to ready.

Note, Starfleet Engineering does not have a great track record in the late 23rd century. The refit Enterprise from Star Trek The Motion Picture had plenty of problems too. And the "great experiment of transwarp drive" of the Excelsior was a failure.

One of the main missions for the Constitution Class was five year missions. And the two five year missions seem to be the norm: Spock served under Pike for 13 years (so two five year missions) and Kirk did two as well. So this had the effect of the ships only getting refits every five to ten years.

The Miranda class was never a replacement for the Constitution Class. The Miranda-class had the duties of science and escort...plus exciting supply shipping.