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This is a weird one but I feel that one of the biggest missteps of the Disney Era is the treatment of the Storm Troopers. I remember when Finn was first announced and everyone was really exited at the idea of Storm Troopers being given more of a chance to be humanized which was something we really hadn't seen on the Big Screen Before instead of being regulated to a joke like many had felt they had been reduced to during the Lucas Era.

That's honestly a fair assessment as while The Clone Wars and Kyle Katarn's series Jedi Academy were all stories that helped to humanize Storm Troopers the Clone Wars Movie was overall poorly received and while not a box office bomb persay didn't do nearly as well as other SW films. As for the TV series while it was a huge hit as was Jedi Academy let's be honest not everyone who watches movies watch TV shows or play games so this would be something sorta new for film fans.

The problem is, this isn't what we got in the film itself as throughout the Trilogy Finn was just a gag character who is really there just to look funny so everyone around him looks color by comparison and as the films went on he only got worse. The films really did their best to make Finn look like an idiot as the filmmakers just didn't seem to know what to do with despite having the potential to be one of the most well rounded and fleshed out characters in all the films.

Someone who was once an minion of evil but defected to the heroes for moral reasons is the bases of Kyle Katarn, Darth Vader, Revan, Zuko, Loghain, and about half the cast from She-Ra and the Princesses of Power ALL of which are hugely popular characters. Even characters who were only connected to a group of villains but still chose to do good despite all the hardship doing so would bring them (Asami Sato and Amity Blight) also proved to be very popular with fans because of all the potential it offered them as characters even if their screen time was limited.

But Finn, outside of a few bits of dialogue him being a Storm Trooper is a more of a minor bit of Trivia rather then being a huge part of his character. And what's worse from a meta perspective is that John Boyega is quite possibly the single most perfect casting choice for Kyle Katarn and he's wasted as someone who is most remembered for screaming Rey's name, (seriously it feel like half his dialogue consists of him going RRRRRAAAAAYYYYY!!!).

And, (chuckle) well it gets worse. See another point that fans were exited for and something I think even Disney was hyping up was how the Storm Troopers were no longer going to be a joke that they would be actually intimating and a this was emphasized in the Prologue of TFA and marketing putting a lot of focus on Phasma (whom we've already talked about... sorta (the conversation somehow became about continuity and Ahsoka's popularity)) and just about everyone remembers the mimic badass that was TR-8R.

But after TFA the Storm Troopers somehow became even MORE of a Joke then they were under the Lucas Era. You know the who out of universe joke that Storm Troopers can't shoot for $#!t? Well, the Disney Era has decided to take that Joke and make it canon with the Mandalorian (an otherwise serious show) making fun at how the Troopers can't hit anything they're shooting at. In TM there is literally a scene of two Troopers trying to shot a can and missing despite it only being a few feat away from them.

This particular problem is exacerbated when you remember that one of the last times we saw people dressed as Storm Troopers on big screen was the Infamous Order 66 which showed the Clone Troopers slaughtering Jedi throughout the galaxy in quick succession. That scene is so iconic that most people don't even remember that the last time we saw the Clone Troopers in action was during a scene when they were fighting Obi-Wan and Yoda and it was the Troopers getting slaughtered in a matter of seconds.

The sad truth of the matter is that while Troopers were fun to cut through in video games the fact of the matter is they were honestly less of a joke in the Lucas Era then they are in the Disney Era. Even if you ignore all the supplementary from the Lucas Era Troopers honestly feel more like a threat as while they didn't hit their targets all that often the fact of the matter is no one who isn't a main character in these films can hit a damn thing. Boba Fett throughout the first two Trilogies never hit a single target and was taken out by a blind man. Yet when he first appeared in The Mandalorian Proper did the marketing or cast and crew try to build up how dangerous he was or go into how he would be more fleshed out?

No, they just had Boba show up, kick @$$, and made sure to take all the elements from the Original Expanded Universe that people liked and drop all the crap that everyone hated. Again this is a character who in his one and only fight was utterly Curb-Stomped by Luke and, again, taken out by a blind Han Solo who just sorta bumped into Boba yet the show acts like Boba had always been this bad@$$ because that's how Star Wars has treated him all these years.

Sure it's all in tie-ins but even if you never read a single novel or comic where Boba played a major role you still had an idea that Boba was this near unstoppable Bounty Hunter and the show treats him as such. By contrast the Storm Troopers, even in the awesome Mandalorian series, are treated as a joke that no can or should take seriously.

The one Trooper who joined the heroes is a just their to look like a fool at every opportunity and to scream out Rey's name and every character who is a Storm Trooper (unless it's a Clone Trooper) is treated as joke. Again, TFA did a decent job with regular Troopers like that film's opening scene and TR-8R but other then that Disney has really done the Troopers a diservous and I really hope that actually work to make them intimating again.

Especially now that Star Wars seems to be on something of a comeback with the success of TM and the Lego Star Wars Holiday Special of all things working to recapture what made Star Wars so much fun. Hopefully well start to get villains that are actually as fun as the heroes.

I really abhorred TCW's take on the clones. For one thing, the earlier CWMMP and the G Canon itself made it quite clear, the clones are just expendable tools, programmed to serve, the only ones with personality are not selected amongst the rank and files, they are bred by the cloners themselves and made into ARC Troopers and Clone Commandos. Nowhere is that present in TCW. Don't get me wrong, it is quite compelling and made many excellent storylines, but it's been part of my major issues with Mr. Filoni. Fanservice without thought. For those who hate DSW's modern "don't think just consume" management, he popularized it.

Humanizing the clones was a huge mistake in hindsight because by the time S6 came around, Mr. Filoni had to invent still more lore-breaking retcons to justify this, and yes, I'm talking about the microchips. That completely contradicts not only the EU, but also the six films. It's why continuity means nothing anymore and he just still waves off his role in it. The clone troopers were never meant to have a long shelf life, but suffer irreversible genetic breakdowns once the war was won in the next two to five years, sorta like the Asgard on SG.

Finn had enormous potential, but... what can you do?

Captain Crimson wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:54 am I really abhorred TCW's take on the clones. For one thing, the earlier CWMMP and the G Canon itself made it quite clear, the clones are just expendable tools, programmed to serve, the only ones with personality are not selected amongst the rank and files, they are bred by the cloners themselves and made into ARC Troopers and Clone Commandos. Nowhere is that present in TCW. Don't get me wrong, it is quite compelling and made many excellent storylines, but it's been part of my major issues with Mr. Filoni. Fanservice without thought. For those who hate DSW's modern "don't think just consume" management, he popularized it.

Humanizing the clones was a huge mistake in hindsight because by the time S6 came around, Mr. Filoni had to invent still more lore-breaking retcons to justify this, and yes, I'm talking about the microchips. That completely contradicts not only the EU, but also the six films. It's why continuity means nothing anymore and he just still waves off his role in it. The clone troopers were never meant to have a long shelf life, but suffer irreversible genetic breakdowns once the war was won in the next two to five years, sorta like the Asgard on SG.

Finn had enormous potential, but... what can you do?

Honestly, I think making the clones more human and relatable was a great move and the microchip adds another layer of horror and tragedy to Order 66 as Palpatine wasn't just ordering the deaths of the Jedi but also committed the death of personality of the Clone Troopers.

And just on a viewer level having the Clone Troopers be more like they were in Legends wouldn't have worked as watching a bunch of mindless tools with no character would get really boring really fast. Also it was REALLY inconsistent across the board as their were just as many Legends stories released before The Clone Wars was even announced that showed that CTs were just as independent as any regular person like in Battle Front 2 which has a story that follows the tales of one Trooper who clearly is as fleshed out and independent as any of the Troopers in TCW.

As for being Fanservice without thought, I REALLY can't agree because to make characters as deep and as interesting as Rex and Fives takes a lot of effort whereas something like "Palpatine Returns And was the Master Mind Behind Everything Because Dark Side Powers!!!" IS Fanservice Without Thought!

Rex grows and the other Troopers we follow are fully realized and fleshed out characters on par with the likes of Mara, Luke, Leia, Han, Lando and Ahsoka who is as loved as those characters. Also, what fan was asking for more fleshed out Clone Troopers? For something to be Fanservice there must be a demand for it and NO ONE was asking for more human and relatable Clone Troopers. Sure, we wanted Storm Troopers to be intimating but more relatable? That was only a request after Finn came into the picture.

Let's look back at the whole point of this post. Troopers being intimidating or being utter jokes is Fanservice just different forms. The whole second season of The Mandalorian has been loaded with Fanservice and well done Fanservice IMO as even if you don't catch that it's Fanservice it's still enjoyable. Take the first episode which has someone using Boba Fett's armor, the return of Boba Fett, a Krayt Dragon and the method in how the Krayt Dragon is attacked (hitting it with land mines) and the pearl that's found without in it after it's killed are both reference to Knights of the Old Republic. But even if you don't catch onto that it's still enjoyable and still works within the context of the story.

This is Fanservice with thought as there's clearly effort put into it instead of just having Fanservice for because the story lacks so little weight of its own that it needs to bring in Fanservice just to balance out how little substance it has on its own. For example, the Millennium Falcon at the start of TFA. Sure it's awesome to see it again but the way it got to Tatooine 1Star.0 is contrived and stupid which makes it clear that it's just Fanservice for the sake of it.

The Falcon isn't there because it makes sense narratively (which it doesn't BTW) it's there because it's the Millennium Falcon and fans will obviously want to see it again and will except the stupid reason it's there (and I'm counting myself in that statement). Fanservice isn't a bad thing especially if it's well thought out and fits into the story and the narrative it created which, IMHO, Filoni has done expertly thought out his SW run.

The big problem isn't the clones' newfound independence, as those led to great stories, it is that, yeah, it is absolutely fanservice without thought and more of the Filoniverse injecting itself where it doesn't belong. For the series that was touted as being more in line to Mr. Lucas's vision, it never lined up to that vision as succinctly as the earlier CWMMP. On the surface, the microchips seem like a good idea to explain the new plot holes from independent clones. As you noted, it adds a horror angle. But that also illustrates why that doesn't work, because nowhere in the film itself is this so much as hinted at, and even Ahsoka never appears in SWIII, nor the various CWMMP entities surrounding the release. It's nonstop retcon after retcon after retcon. Planets change appearance or location, characters are altered for apparently no other reason than to prove one is able to do this, and a host of other issues.

I much prefer the CW Microseries over TCW, as TCW was just diluting it, and as the new hot thing of 2008, it buried so much of the previous lore that the vast majority of hipster fans happily abandoned it. Take Quinlan Vos. In the CWMMP, he's gruff and gritty, a very serious man, of a badass loner ilk who has a lot of struggles with the dark side as a part of Dooku's Dark Acolytes, and even epic storylines like discovering the Dathormiri and dealing with their Infinity Gate. He's the Jedi Batman, basically. In TCW, he's laid back, and borderline goofy. I mean, he's The Dude. Not Quinlan Vos, Quinlan Lebowski. In fact, the same practices of the DSWC first took place on TCW. If you're upset about them burying and forgetting the EU lore or reinterpreting character motivations, TCW was that for the CW era of the SWT, and the DSWST are that for the OG post-Endor tales. And we've seen this in other franchises, sadly. How many people really remember the OG BG? The remake is all that we've got, it's buried the older IP so it has no cultural relevance. The same thing happening in ST right now. It's gonna hit SG eventually. And B5. And other classical geek hits.

Captain Crimson wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:49 am The big problem isn't the clones' newfound independence, as those led to great stories, it is that, yeah, it is absolutely fanservice without thought and more of the Filoniverse injecting itself where it doesn't belong. For the series that was touted as being more in line to Mr. Lucas's vision, it never lined up to that vision as succinctly as the earlier CWMMP. On the surface, the microchips seem like a good idea to explain the new plot holes from independent clones. As you noted, it adds a horror angle. But that also illustrates why that doesn't work, because nowhere in the film itself is this so much as hinted at, and even Ahsoka never appears in SWIII, nor the various CWMMP entities surrounding the release. It's nonstop retcon after retcon after retcon. Planets change appearance or location, characters are altered for apparently no other reason than to prove one is able to do this, and a host of other issues.

I much prefer the CW Microseries over TCW, as TCW was just diluting it, and as the new hot thing of 2008, it buried so much of the previous lore that the vast majority of hipster fans happily abandoned it. Take Quinlan Vos. In the CWMMP, he's gruff and gritty, a very serious man, of a badass loner ilk who has a lot of struggles with the dark side as a part of Dooku's Dark Acolytes, and even epic storylines like discovering the Dathormiri and dealing with their Infinity Gate. He's the Jedi Batman, basically. In TCW, he's laid back, and borderline goofy. I mean, he's The Dude. Not Quinlan Vos, Quinlan Lebowski. In fact, the same practices of the DSWC first took place on TCW. If you're upset about them burying and forgetting the EU lore or reinterpreting character motivations, TCW was that for the CW era of the SWT, and the DSWST are that for the OG post-Endor tales. And we've seen this in other franchises, sadly. How many people really remember the OG BG? The remake is all that we've got, it's buried the older IP so it has no cultural relevance. The same thing happening in ST right now. It's gonna hit SG eventually. And B5. And other classical geek hits.

In regards to the former, that's a fair point but that doesn't make what is done with the Clone Troopers fanservice as, again, no one was asking for it. Filoni and other writers decided, With Lucas' Blessing and some of which was LUCAS' Idea, to give the Troopers more character. Seeing Clone Troopers fight alongside Jedi and do awesome $#!t is fanservice but Clone Troopers being fully realized characters is not, it's just writers being writers.

Again, for something to be fanservice it MUST have a Demand. More practical effects in the Disney Sequel Trilogy is fanservice because fans WANTED more practical effects. There's also the Destruction of Not Coruscant in TFA because the higher ups thought Fans wanted to see that world and all the Political Elements from the Prequels Burn with it because it was believed, incorrectly, that fans would enjoy that. Then behold the negative fan reaction that caused Disney to announce that the planet that was blown up WASN'T Coruscant but another City Planet that just so happened to be the seat of government for the Republic.

The clones being given more story now like what we got in Rebels IS Fanservice because fans wanted aka DEMANDED to know what happened to their favorite characters and while we did get good stories from that it IS fanservice. Demand for something means people wanted it the clones being given character was NOT demanded by anyone OTHER then the people in the series in order to make for good drama. And this idea was more or less confirmed to have originated with George Lucas or, at the very least, it was brought to his attention and he gave his approval.

As to your second point, that is your personal preference and I have no argument. I will say that I enjoy and even love the 2D Clone Wars and while I think everything is a little over the top (Grievous is WAAAAY OP) it works with the style and without it we may never have gotten the 3D Clone Wars.

However, no Star Trek isn't going anywhere, it will always be a huge part of pop-culture and will always be remembered. If people haven't forgotten it after over 50 years then they're not going to forget about it ever. Hell, B5 may not be as popular but it's also not going anywhere. If people still remember the stories of H.P. Lovecraft despite his stories having some... notable flaws... to put it mildly...

And before you jump in to tell me how little Trek is being talked about today don't bother because believe me I've heard it all before. I heard it back when the Last TNG movie was released we've ALL here at the Opinionated Guide know how it was basically cancelled after 3 seasons and how it was almost forgotten after Season 3. And I could go on forever.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this happens. When a story strikes a cord with people it becomes popular, has problems, goes into what is basically hibernation, comes back at some point, gets popular again, loses that popularity and the cycle starts all over again. No one is going to forget good stories.

For crying out loud the story of Atalanta despite her not being nearly as popular as other Greek heroes.

So, please, do not tell me how I'm wrong and how ST, SW and other series will be forgotten forever I've had a VERY Challenge of a Week (F#(K You 2020) so if we could please stay on topic and just talk about the Storm Troopers!

Sorry, again REALLY bad week!!!

I'd argue that Finn is treated like Jar Jar and it's not a good look for the black guy.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:25 pm I'd argue that Finn is treated like Jar Jar and it's not a good look for the black guy.

I could get behind that. H, in TFA's trailer vid, I saw too many N-bombs being dropped and not in the "wassup, my friend" affectionate kinda slur way, where it's clearly derogatory. Not cool, man. Not cool...

Mostly it's just the fact Finn is constantly getting his ass kicked and the designated coward who doesn't understand where he was, what he's doing, or more.

Can't even keep a love interest for a movie.

Especially in the last one where he does basically nothing but run around yelling "Rey!". They could have cut him out entirely and lost nothing.

mathewgsmith wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:06 am They could have cut him out entirely and lost nothing.

That could actually be the subtitle of the entire Disney Sequel Trilogy, "You can Cut this out and lose nothing of Value."