Sfdebris.net

In Star Wars Rebels there was an entire story arc dedicated to Sabine and her learning how to wield a lightsaber. The arc made a big deal on how Lightsabers were difficult to wield, even for someone trained in combat and being trained by a Jedi. The story made a point to also note the unnatural nature of a lightsaber, that they were heavier then they appeared and that there seemed to be something of a magnetic element as the blades would be drawn to each other.

In Season two of the Mandalorian Ahsoka Tano noted that one must be trained in the Force in order to know how to wield it, that one cannot simply use the power of the Force. In the season Finally Luke Skywalker himself states, quote, "Talent without training is Nothing." when noting that as much raw talent Grogu utilized that he would not be safe until he mastered his abilities.

These moments were released both during and after The Disney Sequel Trilogy was released and were all, in some way, connected to Dave Filoni who is currently the creator with the most consistent successes with Star Wars. Regardless as to what your feelings on Filoni's handling of Star Wars is he has had the most well received stories thus far in the Disney Era. Rebels, The Mandalorian and the last season of the Clone Wars and all made a big deal about how hard using the Force is and that someone just gaining powers without any real training is ridiculous.

Maybe it's just me, but it honestly feels like Filoni is calling out Rey's unearned powers and skills with the Force. She has had training in either lightsaber combat and yet she has been able to defeat everyone who she has gone up against in combat without taking any real damage even though everyone she's fought has been trained with a lightsaber since they were old enough to hold one and people who were specifically trained to fight people who were trained in lightsaber combat.

And despite only have the Force for a few days in the first two movies Rey becomes more powerful then Luke was during the Original Trilogy. Hell, in Rise off Skywalker despite being one of the most powerful Sith of all time Rey managed to defeat Palpatine with little to no effort during their one and only fight despite having LOST her powers and she did it while being able to connect to all the Jedi which is a feat that no one has ever accomplished.

Again, maybe it's just me but I would like to know what you all think?

As I said in the Mandalorian thread, i think the whole show right now is a middle finger to the Sequels and Rian in particular. I get the impression that Kathleen can only be a figurehead nowadays.

I think Favreau is just a little more fast and loose with what people want to see.

Only Favreau could direct Iron Man.

I can buy Rey's feat in The Force Awakens thanks to this exchange from A New Hope.

Obi-Wan: A Jedi can feel the force flowing through him.
Luke: So it controls your actions?
Obi-War: Partially, but it will also obey your commands.

Also, in A New Hope, Luke is able to become in tune with the Force to make the shot despite only just learning he's Force sensitive, though needing to make a conscious effort to clear his mind to do it.

In TFA, Rey was most in turned with the Force at times she was running on instinct like piloting the Falcon in their escape. She didn't even know how she did it. The answer is in her state of fight or flight, the Force was able to control her actions.

And when she used the Jedi Mind Trick, she had to make a conscious effort to relax and clear her mind in order for it to work.

The purpose of Jedi training is to make it so you can have this connection to the Force as second nature. You don't need to be in a state where instinct has completely taken over or consciously focus your mind. You are one with the Force, and that is as natural as breathing.

And as for fighting Kylo, Kylo was injured and dealing with the issues of having just killed his father inhibiting him. Also, the point was Kylo was a garbage warrior. He knew some impressive tricks, but he was not a trained at the Jedi temple for a decade and veteran of the Clone Wars like Vader was. And even considering all of that, Rey could only fight him to a draw and Star Killer Base blowing up around them probably saved her.

However, that defense doesn't travel into the next two movies. Certainly not in The Last Jedi which happened directly after The Force Awakens. She received less training from Luke than he got from Yoda (because they made Luke an emo because Johnson wanted to betray expectations) but is better at wielding the Force than he is at the end. The one defense I could have is it's a difference in the characters. Luke was a farm boy who had an adopted family while Rey was living on her own and fending for herself, so she had a stronger (small f) force of will and used that to bodge her way with the boulders. As Yoda said, "Do or do not, there is no try". And that would have been something interesting to explore instead of wasting half the movie on the casino planet.

Then, we don't know how long it had been between The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker. However, Rey is not only capable with the Force but even had developed a class (healer).

I am glad that the spinoff material has pointed out how difficult it is to become a true Jedi/Sith and how far and away different they are from someone who is simply Force sensitive.

@Al-1701 In regards to Luke's learning the Force in ANH, all he did was block a few shots from a practice droid and make one impossible shot. Rey does to something similar in TFA when she manages to turn on and off the Millennium Falcon to give Finn the perfect shot he needed to take down the Tie-Fighter and when she closed the door at just the right moment to save Finn.

I don't mind these two moments in the slightest because it HAS been firmly established that those who have an unknowing connection to the Force have heightened senses and faster reflexes. So, Rey's skills from act one through two are perfectly justifiable in my mind, I'm even one of the few people who wasn't bothered by her fixing the Falcon via her bypass trick.

But after Kylo interrogates her she is able to pull off, in order, a Mind Trick (which took Luke 6 or 7 years to master) a Force Pull (which took Luke 5 years to master) and knew how to wield a lightsaber (and keep in mind that Kylo's injury didn't even slow him down during the fight given how he was largely playing with Finn only for Rey to best him in combat).

And from what we're told in both the films and supplementary martial Ben Solo was training to be a Force User for most of his life before his encounter with Rey. So, yes, from what the text of the series has told us Kylo Ren/Ben Solo did have decades of training from both Luke and Snoke aka Palpatine. Both even make a point at just how much power Kylo has that is supposedly on par with Rey and we're seen what he can do with the Force.

Again, I'm willing to buy all the fancy tricks Rey pulled off before her encounter with Kylo but after that based on what the other films AND the supplementary material has told us Rey being able to suddenly use the Force with no training is quite silly and makes her OP.

clearspira wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:46 pm As I said in the Mandalorian thread, i think the whole show right now is a middle finger to the Sequels and Rian in particular. I get the impression that Kathleen can only be a figurehead nowadays.

They're just not going to retcon the DSWST, at all. Mr. Favreau's own words don't support this. This is being advertised as exploring how we wind up there. So this is the exploration to how Luke Skywalker wound up being the bitter old hermit he is. One theory I have is that something awful happens to Grogu, like maybe Kylo Ren murders him. I wouldn't get your hopes raised just yet if you hated TLJ. I think way too many ST haters are putting far too much stock into Mr. Favreau or Mr. Filoni being the last hope we have to undo that, and I'd be very skeptical if they did.

Captain Crimson wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:52 pm

clearspira wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:46 pm As I said in the Mandalorian thread, i think the whole show right now is a middle finger to the Sequels and Rian in particular. I get the impression that Kathleen can only be a figurehead nowadays.

They're just not going to retcon the DSWST, at all. Mr. Favreau's own words don't support this. This is being advertised as exploring how we wind up there. So this is the exploration to how Luke Skywalker wound up being the bitter old hermit he is. One theory I have is that something awful happens to Grogu, like maybe Kylo Ren murders him. I wouldn't get your hopes raised just yet if you hated TLJ. I think way too many ST haters are putting far too much stock into Mr. Favreau or Mr. Filoni being the last hope we have to undo that, and I'd be very skeptical if they did.

You could very well be right. It amuses me though that TLJ so messed up Luke, Kylo and Snoke's backstory that we need a whole new show to try and plug the gap. And for me, a film or book should stand on its own. TLJ will always suck no matter how many hours of other content I am required to watch.

clearspira wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:41 am

Captain Crimson wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:52 pm

clearspira wrote: ↑Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:46 pm As I said in the Mandalorian thread, i think the whole show right now is a middle finger to the Sequels and Rian in particular. I get the impression that Kathleen can only be a figurehead nowadays.

They're just not going to retcon the DSWST, at all. Mr. Favreau's own words don't support this. This is being advertised as exploring how we wind up there. So this is the exploration to how Luke Skywalker wound up being the bitter old hermit he is. One theory I have is that something awful happens to Grogu, like maybe Kylo Ren murders him. I wouldn't get your hopes raised just yet if you hated TLJ. I think way too many ST haters are putting far too much stock into Mr. Favreau or Mr. Filoni being the last hope we have to undo that, and I'd be very skeptical if they did.

You could very well be right. It amuses me though that TLJ so messed up Luke, Kylo and Snoke's backstory that we need a whole new show to try and plug the gap. And for me, a film or book should stand on its own. TLJ will always suck no matter how many hours of other content I am required to watch.

That's the thing. We already got the backstories behind all this, and it was terrible storytelling. Luke is the bitter old hermit he is because he had a vision and acted stupidly on it. Snoke is just one of Palpetine's deformed clones. We got the backstory, and going into more detail isn't going to improve it.

Even I am willing to push the magic reset button. Use the World Between Worlds to kill the first clone of Palpetine and destroy his cloning facilities. That way he can't cause all this happen. Then deal with the unintended consequences. Which could be interesting in and of itself where is this timeline better or worse than the Sequel Trilogy (in-universe because just about anything would be better than the Sequel Trilogy from the standpoint of entertainment).

I hope they retcon, but I don't think Disney is even remotely willing to because they know they will be decried for "giving in to the manbabies" regardless of whether or not it's better than the sequel trilogy or not.

Beelzquill wrote: ↑Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:11 am I hope they retcon, but I don't think Disney is even remotely willing to because they know they will be decried for "giving in to the manbabies" regardless of whether or not it's better than the sequel trilogy or not.

That might have been true when TLJ came out but since then The Mandalorian and ROS was released everyone has begun to turn on the TDST and see what the series has been missing. Keep in mind that Season 2 of the Mandalorian has introduced a number of retcons that already make me wonder if TDST has already been retconned. The Mandalorian takes place 5 years after Return of the Jedi and the Empire is already rebuilding it's armies.

Not the first order, not even the final order EVERYONE has referred to this group as The Empire with one bit of dialogue even calling it the Imperial Remnant. There has been no mention of the Battle of Jakku which, in the Disney continuity, was the true final battle between the Empire and the Rebellion but instead Endor has been referred to as the final battle of the Galactic Civil War.

These are rather major points and create plot holes rather then close any. The First Order was suppose to be the group that rosed from the Empire's ashes the First Order and was composed of new people who were, for the most part, had no connection to the Galactic Empire and yet The Mandalorian makes it clear that what is happening is that the Remnant of the Empire is rebuilding itself with someone behind the scenes working to rebuild the Empire.

And the series itself seems to be implying that someone is Grand Admiral Thrawn. This again contradicts what we know from TDST where it's made clear that Palpatine was the one who orchestrated the creation of the First Order and later the Final Order.

I mentioned in another post that what happened with Star Wars is not to dissimilar to what happened with DC Comics back when the New 52 came out. First you have a new canon that is created as a result of a continuity that has become overly complicated so to fix that a reboot occurs to try and simplify things.

At first it works, we're given a clean slate and things start off via a retelling of one of the more successful stories in the series (a Justice League team up with DC and a remake of A New Hope for Star Wars). However, the reboot was more of a result of executive order and little to no love for the new canon is shown, with one or two of the more questionable stories being used to outright mock the original continuity to show how much better this new continuity will be.

BUUUT things are never that simply and one thing the higher ups don't take into account is that A) The Old still has it's fans and they don't much care for their stories being de-canonized and B) Many of the writers working for them aren't as willing as their employers are. And here comes the twist, the ones up top aren't so willing to part with what made the series a success either so they try to recapture what made the series work.

Further hampering things is the need to make EVERY story the next big thing that changes the status quo forever before a status quo can even be established and to account for this massive events tie-ins for said event are made only for it to be revealed that these aren't just a few tie-ins to help sell the event their mandatory in order to understand what is going on in the story.

Eventually this all collapses in on itself mainly due to the lack of support that no one thought to build. Thrown in a rather massive case of Continuity Fallout from the Original Continuity and it becomes clear that the only way to get everyone back on board is to just head back to the old continuity WHILE holding onto the elements that people like so everyone can have their cake and eat it too.

This does seem to be the way things are going for the Disney Era with a clear plan in place to begin to undo the damage the reboot caused.