Sfdebris.net

Season 3 of Star Trek: The Next Generation was something of a relaunch for TNG with new uniforms, new lead writer, new cinematographer, Geordi and Worf got promoted, Crusher was back and this season is when the TNG Era began to put more emphases on character and explored the flaws of Trek's ideas of Utopia. To quote Chuck when you saw the gradual of the Enterprise reveal against the Stars you were seeing the launch of TNG mark 2.

So, I must ask, is that's what's happening with The Mandalorian?

TM has likewise taken Star Wars in a new direction, with the look and overall style of the series being altered to better emulate the Lucas Era (there are far fewer stylized camera angles in TM that were, IMO, overused in The Disney Sequel Trilogy and even Jedi: Fallen Order) and, VERY much unlike TDST, there is does seem to be a plan for TM and it's various spin-off shows.

As I've mentioned elsewhere Disney and Lucas Film have made it clear that they are planning some big story event that TM and its spin-off shows (Ahsoka, The Book of Boba Fett and Rangers of the New Republic) are all building up to. And so far this build up seems to be working to reintroduce elements from the Original Extended Universe aka Legends to help with the world building, something TDST was refusing to include.

As of this writing TM has concluded and the 7th and final season of The Clone Wars FINALLY wrapped up and the spin-offs of TM will be released in the upcoming years starting with The Book of Boba Fett and for the first time in a long time I'm actually existed for more Star Wars. Thoughts?

Makes me wonder how practical doing Shadows of the Empire could become now.

Beastro wrote: ↑Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:32 pm Makes me wonder how practical doing Shadows of the Empire could become now.

Shadow of the Empire is, IMO, THE story of Legends as it's everything that made Legends what it is. It's a multimedia project that was is set as a interquel between The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, designed to have all of the media that would surround a new movie without actually making a movie. This is was something that really could only be done during the Lucas Era as it's something no studio would realistically do even as an April Fools joke.

And yet SOTE is still loved by fans years later because it gave us a fun and engaging story for a ultimately product that we knew wasn't coming and likely never will. SOTE is a story I couldn't see happening unless there was an actual film being made as which defeats the whole point of SOTE, it's a story that ultimate pay off just a lot of build up and it works.

I could only see something like this happening again if someone like Lucas is put in charge of the series and I doubt that would happen.

I think the Sequel Trilogy suffered from more than anything impatience on the part of Iger. He had just plunked down 4 billion and wanted a return on investment quickly. If they had planned for Episode VII to release in 2017 instead of 2015 and released an episode every three years instead of every other like they did, they could have ironed out the story better. Instead, they were kind of forced into playing it safe with a reskin of A New Hope. Then the insane schedule forced them to have a different director for the middle episode who decided to do whatever for the lulz, and the third movie had to try to fix things as best as it could. Even the in-universe timeline was rushed. The second movie picked up immediately after the first, so Rey was never given that gap to develop her abilities in a believable fashion.

With that in the rear-view mirror, Disney can see what does and does not work, and what is and is not selling. The Original Trilogy and properties surrounding its era have been well received and continue to sell, and Disney and its licensees have taken noticed. So, I could see Legends moving more into the forefront since it's what the fans want and willing to put money on the counter for. If so, more power to them.

They're not going to hard retcon the DSWST. Forget it. That's just clickbait nonsense.

I see little to indicate that the management has changed. If it had, they'd let Del Rey and Marvel continue Legends, from willing authors. Ms. Kennedy is not going anywhere, she's going to stay on through 2021, just you wait. Mr. Filoni is not a good writer, and casual fans are going to get a full-throated taste of that with the Ahsoka series.

Please don't get your hopes up. I have the feeling it will end badly.

Captain Crimson wrote: ↑Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:01 pm They're not going to hard retcon the DSWST. Forget it. That's just clickbait nonsense.

I see little to indicate that the management has changed. If it had, they'd let Del Rey and Marvel continue Legends, from willing authors. Ms. Kennedy is not going anywhere, she's going to stay on through 2021, just you wait. Mr. Filoni is not a good writer, and casual fans are going to get a full-throated taste of that with the Ahsoka series.

Please don't get your hopes up. I have the feeling it will end badly.

Okay, could you please get some new material? Every time I bring up the subject of SW you ALWAYS say the same thing. Filoni isn't a good writer, Del Rey and Marvel Should continue Legends, they will never get rid of TDST, Filoni wants to marry Ahsoka and of course don't be naive and SW will never change.

I'm getting more then little tried of your lack of creativity and constantly going on about how Star Wars will never be as good as when it was Legends. Even as someone who is admittedly OCD hearing the same thing repeated over and OVER again gets Annoying.

I'm NOT saying your not allowed to your opinion or that you are in someway wrong because your not agreeing with me but PLEASE stop saying the same thing!!! Change! It! UP!

For example, why don't you elaborate on why you think Filoni isn't a good writer WITHOUT talking about the few retcons because EVERY WRITER USES RETCONS! The BIBLE Has Retcons!!! I need more then the "this one thing is different from this other thing and there for it is bad" argument. Yes, the Clones are different from how they were written in Legends and the chip to insure Order 66 happened is a retcon. The episode where that was introduced is also seen by many, myself included, as one of the best episodes of the series for its solid writing and adding to the already great moment of Order 66.

Two, please stop going on about how Filoni is keeping Ahsoka around because he wants to marry her. I have found NOTHING that supports this view of him and something that ridicules WOULD have shown up on the net LONG before now.

Again, I'm only bringing this up because you are hitting the same notes and honestly I'm tired of it. It's like someone who uses the same Knock, Knock Jokes over and over again with no variation and they keep expecting to get a laugh out of it even though they're adding nothing new to the joke.

The Bible isn't exactly a good book in the first place, so the retcons get overlooked due to the general badness of the thing.

I'm sorry if I seem offensive. I'm trying really hard to be that cold splash of water, the unwanted dose of realism here, since it feels all to reminiscent of 2015, and while most of fandom was gushing it up then, I was trying to be the voice of reason, that they were putting too much stock into this. Very few people listened.

This isn't a relaunch, because the management is the same and will remain the same for a while. The SWL illustration is to point out one of their many flaws, which is messing over their business partners. It may be a small thing, but it does speak volumes to the corporate tyranny going on behind the halls at LF and Disney. It's arrogance and unnecessary spite and one of the ways they are cutting into their own profit margins, even as a minor drop in the bucket, which they should care about, but don't. So if you hate the SJW politics, then it's not going away. At all. It's not about money, but, I guess, as Joker would say, sending a message, a political message.

I've brought it up for a while, let me cite it here, that you can bet Mr. Favreau is going to try to tie into the ST.

https://www.thewrap.com/the-mandalorian ... rst-order/

“What could happen in the 30 years between celebrating the defeat of the Empire and then the First Order?” showrunner Jon Favreau told Entertainment Weekly. “You come in on ‘Episode VII,’ [the First Order are] not just starting out. They’re pretty far along.”

What this says to me is they're going to try to explain how Luke gave up and became the hermit we saw in TLJ. That's my point here. Try and explain how he is tempted to kill Kylo Ren in his sleep. If you hate that, will you be alright with that?

I see way too many anxious fans unrealistically pining for Mr. Favreau and Mr. Filoni as a new figure to latch onto to retcon the ST or rescue DSW. And I think that's putting their expectations too high given his statements here, and that the DSWC is built on a very flimsy foundation. Raising your hopes in '99, okay, you could understand that. 2015? Same thing there. At this point, it feels rather old, like no one is really learning anything.

I bring up Mr. Filoni because, ignoring Mr. Lucas's own contributions to the retcons, Mr. Filoni is notorious for them. The Filoniverse, as I see it, is him using SWL to tell whatever story he wants to, and the pass that fandom gives him when put his words into the mouth of another, there'd be nonstop snarling, is a worrying trend. People forget SWR had abysmal ratings. Ditto on FoD. People in my own Discord servers are just gushing over and over. I mean, don't tell me you're a fan of what happened to Thrawn in SWR. Ahsoka is also NEVER going to die. Period. And it'll get ridiculous after a while. I also want to put it on record that I'm AGAINST Mr. Filoni visiting SWL in one of his TV shows via the WBW. His comments during TCW's run show he was never interested in adhering to the lore, so that should be the end of it. He doesn't do justice to preestablished lore.

It feels too much like actions have no consequences in DSW.

Plus it baffles my mind for people who criticize the tired rehash of Empire versus Rebels, well, the EU has already done far better with non-Imperial threats, the Yuuzhan Vong, the Ssi-ruuk, the Yevetha, in YJK they opted out of Empire versus Rebels and went with bounty hunters, there was also the Rakata, and many more. I guess maybe I have some issues with the large swaths of the casual fandom, as they outnumber the true nerds a billion times over, and it's really those people LF wants to sell to, not us. They misunderstand, they get it trending, they consume, and then move on.

The DSWC runs entirely on nostalgia, nothing new of substance past that. It doesn't feel like it has a long shelf life, and it's been nonstop nostalgia bait over and over. I don't doubt the creators at LF care about SW, but they also don't care for lore and continuity and being original. Don't you remember that whiteboard a few months ago? What do they want, what do they see in SW and SF? It just completely missed all the marks, it's not what a typical fan would write. It's what a corporate fan would write.

I'm also tired of all these "recanonized" alternate-universe interpretations to lore that's been discontinued while casuals gush it up and act like the source material was trash. I don't want more SWL elements in DSCW, they said they wanted it to be a surprise, they wanted their own creativity, and then they claimed there's no source material, but look. Luke is back, Boba Fett is back, Yoda is back, sorta, Ahsoka is back, Ezra is coming back, when will SWL come back? If letting the SWL fans have a few more books and comics every year is too much for them, if they think it will "confuse" the hipster fans they want, then that basic disrespect is still there. And I feel like it's going to show itself sooner or later. They don't like toxic fandom and you're a bigot if you don't agree with them.

Am exhausted, heading to pass out. Night.

Captain Crimson wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:17 am I'm sorry if I seem offensive. I'm trying really hard to be that cold splash of water, the unwanted dose of realism here, since it feels all to reminiscent of 2015, and while most of fandom was gushing it up then, I was trying to be the voice of reason, that they were putting too much stock into this.

You're not being a realist you're being a pessimist, there's a difference. I'm an optimist but one who works to remember that reality doesn't always play nice. I'm also a minor history buff and I know that reality is often unrealistic.

As I've said, enough times that even someone with OCD is getting tired of saying this, the pattern for what will happen to Star Wars is one that has been done before. It happened with DC, Marvel, Doctor Who and Star Trek. All rebooted their continuity at one point or anther and ALL returned to the original continuity.

And yes, Ahsoka WILL die at some point. She might be brought back every character is killed off at some point. This has happened before, it will happen again.

As for Favreau statement, all we can do is wait and see. One thing to keep in mind is every long term plan always falls apart. Sure, Favreau and Filoni could stick to their guns but given the growing distaste for TDST and that the World Between World has been given a little bit more attention (The Lego Star Wars Holiday Special and the Ahsoka series may involve it) the idea of a in universe reboot is still on the table.

And keep in mind the number of times a series made promises to lead into certain events only for something to change that redirected everything. Sometimes it was because the story went in a new direction, sometimes it's a result of the higher ups ordering a change and sometimes someone new comes in and takes the story in a whole new direction.

Again this happened with DC, Marvel, Doctor Who and Star Trek. All of them had a plan that was thrown aside because of the following reasons I pointed out. People are insane and no one has a fool proof plan.

Neither of us can see the future but I study the past and that tends to give me the most reliable data on how things are going to turn out and 8 times out of 10 I'm usually right. I'm I right here? Well 8 times out of 10 isn't 100% but it's pretty damn close.

Winter wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:04 am You're not being a realist you're being a pessimist, there's a difference. I'm an optimist but one who works to remember that reality doesn't always play nice. I'm also a minor history buff and I know that reality is often unrealistic.

It doesn't, and yet we can all agree LF has had very bad business practices. I personally don't care what they call canon, since it's always fluid, open to changing interpretations. But they act like anything that's not canon isn't worth continuing, and that's one of their biggest mistakes.

Winter wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:04 am As I've said, enough times that even someone with OCD is getting tired of saying this, the pattern for what will happen to Star Wars is one that has been done before. It happened with DC, Marvel, Doctor Who and Star Trek. All rebooted their continuity at one point or anther and ALL returned to the original continuity.

Yeah, but how they returned to the OG continuity matters far more than if it happens at all. I don't think SWL TV shows or movies would work, and Mr. Filoni was never interested in adhering to the lore. As for Mr. Favreau? He's fine, but still has a lot to prove himself in that regard. I think for LF to return to SWL is a mistake, they should just leave it to their business partners at Del Rey and Marvel. Look at how well Marvel #108 sold. Only two DSWC issues sold better. Though it's no surprise after six years of sparse SWL content, I'm incredibly leery of unnecessary retcons, which is likely to happen if they return to an era that's popular only because it sells. And I don't want more rehashes in the SWL continuity, we're already getting that with DSW.

Winter wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:04 am And yes, Ahsoka WILL die at some point. She might be brought back every character is killed off at some point. This has happened before, it will happen again.

We shall see. I personally think it's not going to happen. At best, you'll get a Disney-style ambiguous death, in case she were to ever return. Leave that door open, as we saw in late SGA. You are aware that Mr. Filoni approved a comic where an underage Ahsoka was sexualized? Put into bondage type chains. It's why it feels a bit creepy to me. He's too attached to his character to let her die because he comes off as a fanfiction writer, in style, tone, and content. And it wouldn't surprise me to learn that he's written his own fanfiction prior to joining the ranks of LF.

Winter wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:04 am As for Favreau statement, all we can do is wait and see. One thing to keep in mind is every long term plan always falls apart. Sure, Favreau and Filoni could stick to their guns but given the growing distaste for TDST and that the World Between World has been given a little bit more attention (The Lego Star Wars Holiday Special and the Ahsoka series may involve it) the idea of a in universe reboot is still on the table.

SWL is incredibly dense, so dense I don't think either of them could do it justice at least in the way they would handle it. They would return to the Rebellion era or Old Republic, because that sells, and given that this is essentially time travel, it's more overwriting of past content with their s***. I think you are far overstating how imaginative they are. Shouldn't SWR be proof of that? Besides, the temple at the end of SWR was destroyed. The dimension may exist, but it's inaccessible for now. And I think that's a good thing. This would not be SWL if they revisited it, but SWL tailored for casuals. It's why I think they prefer sticking to the DSWC content, because there's less constraints, and SWR proves Mr. Filoni, for one, crumbles under those.

I mean, with his long experience working at LF at this point, Mr. Filoni would have no interest in writing for SWL because he gets a lot of criticism when that happens, except he can't turn around and blame Mr. Lucas for them this time. SWL is not made for the kind of audiences they or even Disney is seeking. I cringe whenever I remember that he'd attempted to recanonize the Yuuzhan Vong in SWR. That would have been a disaster. The Vong would have been stripped of all that made them cool. I'm very happy it didn't pan out.

Keep in mind one thing, there is a difference between the JediPaxis leaks and what those clickbait YouTubers "reported" during the summer. The JediPaxis, IMO at least, was just a disgruntled employee who'd had enough and was all "HERE!" on social media, as to who it is, we can't say. But the "rumors" they intend to retcon the DSWST come secondhand from Overlord DVD, and even he admitted that you need to be skeptical about it. It's very easy to wonder if he even has insiders at LF with this. So even though the JediPaxis leaks were legit, I remain skeptical about this. If you really love SWL, then how are you okay with them just decanonizing the ST into SWL? That is what he said. What this strikes me as was Mr. Filoni going to Ms. Kennedy and asking, "Hey, can I use the WBW to put Ahsoka into the sequels?" and she was all, "... nah."

Because past those rumors, there's no indication they want to retcon them at all. My own personal theory is someone at LF "reported" that to Overlord hoping it would spread as the way to bring people aboard for TM when Luke, Boba, Ahsoka, all these Legacy characters returned, otherwise they would be thinking about precisely where it leads. But there's no proof, it's just a pet belief of mine.

Winter wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:04 am And keep in mind the number of times a series made promises to lead into certain events only for something to change that redirected everything. Sometimes it was because the story went in a new direction, sometimes it's a result of the higher ups ordering a change and sometimes someone new comes in and takes the story in a whole new direction.

All true. And I'll admit, I'm personally interested to see what leads Luke to the path he had in TLJ, since I don't want the DSWST to be retconned. At least not a hard retcon. I know that movie is highly divisive, but I also think what made SW so great was its interconnectivity. That seems like it has no place on the agenda anymore except "canon is whatever you want" as stated by Mr. Martin. It's why I take such issues with Mr. Filoni, since his writing is all fanservice with no thought put into it about the consequences or how this fits in the lore. I've already talked about the brain-chips, but there's other examples you could name.

I think for SW to have any kind of future they need to double down and keep the Luke we saw in TLJ, explore how he got there. I think that it's related to Grogu somehow, like perhaps Grogu is killed after he bonds with him, that Kylo is being driven down a dark path at his academy, which is what leads to his actions as seen in TLJ. It could even be a homage to the Revan novel, where the titular character was manipulated by Emperor Vitiate. Just apply that to Palpatine/Snoke here. Because the characters we knew still exist in SWL, unchanged, and if that interconnectivity breaks down, it illustrates that DSWC has no future, and that could spill over into SWL. Where it's different fiefdoms of the LF empire becoming their own competing iterations of canon.

It's ironic for all of LF's preaching on canon, they don't care about it. I will state, however, while he has much to do to prove himself in this regard, I'd take Mr. Favreau helming new SWL stories rather than Mr. Filoni. We already know what he does and how he'd do it.

Winter wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:04 am Again this happened with DC, Marvel, Doctor Who and Star Trek. All of them had a plan that was thrown aside because of the following reasons I pointed out. People are insane and no one has a fool proof plan.

SWL may be picking up traction among fans disappointed over TLJ, but they haven't read the books or comics. For example, thinking TCW was made to be a part of SWL. It wasn't. Mr. Filoni made this very clear during TCW's run from his own words. I mean, look at the disparate iterations between events in preestablished lore and TCW.

We see Anakin's Knighting in the CWMMP, whereas in TCW, he's already a Knight and no one comments on it, that takes place "swiftly after the Battle of Geonosis!" which implies only a few months have passed, while in the past lore, it was two years.

There's the final fate of Chancellor Valorum, for example, where he returns to try and warn Bail Organa of Palpatine's intentions, and is manipulated onto a transport which explodes, blamed on CIS terrorism to help further more security crackdowns. In TCW, Valorum appears alive and well, retired and well, and set chronologically after the Star of Iskin incident in SWL.

If their only reason for latching onto SWL is that they think Mr. Filoni should write for it, then that's the wrong move. I was always more interested in the spin-off material than the primary canon, and the NEU already can't keep its s*** straight with so many TV shows and movies. It's why in six years, there's more continuity gaffes than the last forty years relative to the old EU. LF needs to stay away from SWL and free up Del Rey and Marvel to continue them. I think that's the path. DSWC is suited exactly to the audience they want, and SWL is custom-made for books and comics to the older fans.

It's so incredibly obvious, it's just astonishing to me they can't see this.

Winter wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:04 am Neither of us can see the future but I study the past and that tends to give me the most reliable data on how things are going to turn out and 8 times out of 10 I'm usually right. I'm I right here? Well 8 times out of 10 isn't 100% but it's pretty damn close.

I grant you that they may return to the SWL eventually, but as I've said, I don't think, or hope, it will be as TV shows and movies. Mr. Filoni especially should remember all the criticism he got on TCW that he just blew back onto Mr. Lucas. I know Mr. Lucas was responsible for his own retcons, but if you look at the actual history of comments made by both of them during the production, it always boils down to Mr. Filoni saying "George believes this, George believes that," and Mr. Lucas says very little.

I think it speaks to a highly manipulative approach he has, using Mr. Lucas as a shield to deflect criticism and earn his favor to do whatever he wanted. The TCW featurettes back this up when he talks about the editing decisions he snuck past him and the things he got Mr. Lucas to agree to that he was hesitant to approve at first, like Mr. Lucas being in the "Ahsoka dies" camp. His insistence that he knows Mr. Lucas so well, when we know he's had a history of constantly changing his mind, just strikes me as smug egotism meant to legitimize himself to a fanbase that had a hard time accepting him.

I mean, he's said "George is the canon," and that's all he cares about, but Mr. Lucas is gone now. He's also said the primary canon is the TV shows and movies, which is where he writes, not books and comics. He had his chance to adhere to SWL continuity and didn't in 2008. He even admits he felt like he knew he was going to "take a big giant wrecking ball to continuity" back then. Those are just a few of the many remarks he's made since TCW began and ended. It's not a criticism on TCW's quality (the clone stuff is always good) so much as observing the policies of the management. It would be very hypocritical to return to SWL after all he's said about canon. And I hold him responsible for his own contributions to the fandom backlash against Mr. Lucas in the late aughts.

As to how SWL will return, I can't say, but me and others in the TSF and SWL fandom hope it's from Del Rey and Marvel, not LF. They haven't done much to particularly win us over in that regard. I hate to be a buzzkill, especially if something is bringing someone else joy and happiness, so I'll shut it off right here to avoid further repetition, at least for the moment.