Page 1 of 5
What I Like Most About Picard and Discovery S3
Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:37 am
by Winter
While neither show is perfect one thing I like about both Picard and Season 3 of Discovery is that it's actually using the stories that came before as a foundation to tell their stories. For example, and please note there will be spoilers for Picard so stop reading now, the Borg.
At the end of Voyager it seemed to imply that the Borg was destroyed but Picard has shown that the Collective is still active. However, the actions of the Voyager crew DID hurt them and they are taking their time in making another move so the victory of Voyager wasn't undone and still means something, it wasn't just swept aside like it never happened.
Contrast this with what happened in Star Wars with the Disney Sequel Trilogy, nothing that happened in the Original Trilogy mattered. Luke becoming a Jedi, Han and Leia getting together, Anakin's redemption? It all means nothing. The Jedi didn't return, Han and Leia broke up and their kid turned to the Dark Side, and the whole Skywalker family died and Palpatine still won in the end.
The Original Trilogy isn't used as a jumping off point it's copied and pasted with the consequences ignored for no real reason other then to make money.
Say what you will about Star Trek right now but at least their using what came before to build a story which, really, is how a sequel should be made.
Re: What I Like Most About Picard and Discovery S3
Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:50 am
by Sir Will
Yeah the Sequel Trilogy sucks. I didn't think the borg were defeated by Voyager, just hurt. The Queen could be revived somewhere else and they still had other hubs. While it had issues, I still enjoyed Picard and I look forward to a second season. My main gripes were pacing and that it went a little too far with giving everybody depressing backstories or fates. Still pissed about Hugh. But it certainly flows better from existing cannon than the ST did.
Re: What I Like Most About Picard and Discovery S3
Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:19 am
by Winter
Sir Will wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:50 am
Yeah the Sequel Trilogy sucks. I didn't think the borg were defeated by Voyager, just hurt. The Queen could be revived somewhere else and they still had other hubs. While it had issues, I still enjoyed Picard and I look forward to a second season. My main gripes were pacing and that it went a little too far with giving everybody depressing backstories or fates. Still pissed about Hugh. But it certainly flows better from existing cannon than the ST did.
I always call it the Disney Sequel Trilogy as there is a Sequel Trilogy that not only avoided all the issues I have with TDST but is just a great story that BUILDS on the foundation of TOT and that's the Thrawn Trilogy. Just a fun bit of pointless trivia about me
anyways.
I also enjoyed Picard though I also didn't like what happened with Hugh and while I was okay with how 7 of 9 was written I get why it annoyed her long time fans as she didn't act that much like 7 of 9 though I have to admit I'm so glad they got her out of that stupid catsuit.
My main gripe with Picard is actually the same I have with Discovery and that's how the show is filmed. There are VERY few moments in both shows were a scene isn't filmed normally so as a result the scenes that should be slower in pace end up feeling strangely fast paced even though they're not that different from slower/calmer scenes.
I have the same problem with the first two films in the Kelvin Timeline, TDST and pretty much every Michael Bay movie. The directors of these projects keep moving the camera around like they were an action scene so it feels like you can never get a moment to breath because your mind is translating the movement that is happening as action of some sort so it becomes exusting for the viewer.
To show what I mean go and watch any scene from the stories I just mentioned and compare it with this scene from Star Trek Beyond which was a film directed by action Director Justin Lin from the Fast and the Furious.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CysGBZUHW34
While beyond has it's far share of action scenes that stick to how the other films in the Kelvin Timeline are shot the quieter moments are shot in a more calm and relaxed style. The shots are stagnate and still and focus on characters for just the right amount of time instead of jumping around person to person.
In the scene I just showed note how when Kirk and Bones are drinking note the shot linger on Bones as he's shown to clearly be enjoying the drink instead of cutting back and forth between the two. We need more scenes that are shot like this in Star Trek. Star Wars is already starting to move away from this as shown in The Mandalorian and The Clone Wars so hopefully Trek will follow suit.
Re: What I Like Most About Picard and Discovery S3
Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:33 am
by clearspira
If STD season 3 was STD season 1 then it would have been much better received. Bitches like me would still moan true, but the majority of our problems came from the fact that they tried to slot it into an era in which it does not fit. The 1701 does not look like that, there were no holograms back then, the uniforms did not look like that, there were no cyborgs in Starfleet, Klingons did not look like that in TOS or TNG or ENT. And what makes me laugh is that the Star Trek fanbase has ALWAYS niggled over continuity issues; only someone who has no knowledge of how Trekkies received ENT (greatly possible) would have made this mistake.
You speak of the Star Wars Sequels - i'll give them this: they look as if they exist in the same universe. They even still use wireframe graphics on their screens. The idea that you cannot have something look similar in 2020 because it was made in the 1970s is provable bullshit. It just takes effort.
Re: What I Like Most About Picard and Discovery S3
Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:43 am
by Riedquat
I've not seen Discovery S3 but I have seen Picard, and I agree with many of the complaints about it and would add some naive politics to it (although I rather liked the new Seven), but overall enjoyed it. A bit of a different take on Trek, not (as much) being about Star Fleet and what it gets up to.
One point I don't think has been mentioned was seeing some completely different Romulans (I'm afraid it's been a while and I've forgotten all the names). Too often in Trek cultures are too monolithic. Good to see at least a little difference there.
Re: What I Like Most About Picard and Discovery S3
Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:47 am
by Riedquat
clearspira wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:33 am
If STD season 3 was STD season 1 then it would have been much better received. Bitches like me would still moan true, but the majority of our problems came from the fact that they tried to slot it into an era in which it does not fit. The 1701 does not look like that, there were no holograms back then, the uniforms did not look like that, there were no cyborgs in Starfleet, Klingons did not look like that in TOS or TNG or ENT. And what makes me laugh is that the Star Trek fanbase has ALWAYS niggled over continuity issues; only someone who has no knowledge of how Trekkies received ENT (greatly possible) would have made this mistake.
Weirdly enough those sort of continuity changes don't bother me, although more general plot, settings, and characters do. I think it's part of suspension of disbelief, seeing a vision of the future through a filter of what we can do today (both the practical and budgetary limitations of making a TV program), so it doesn't bother me more than a play where it's clear that the actors are standing on a stage. Different productions of the same play at different times and places will look different.
Re: What I Like Most About Picard and Discovery S3
Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:55 am
by clearspira
Riedquat wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:43 am
I've not seen Discovery S3 but I have seen Picard, and I agree with many of the complaints about it and would add some naive politics to it (although I rather liked the new Seven), but overall enjoyed it. A bit of a different take on Trek, not (as much) being about Star Fleet and what it gets up to.
One point I don't think has been mentioned was seeing some completely different Romulans (I'm afraid it's been a while and I've forgotten all the names). Too often in Trek cultures are too monolithic. Good to see at least a little difference there.
IMO, the Romulans have never made all that much sense. Because on paper they are meant to be Vulcans who rejected Surak and logic - which is fine. And yet they never seemed to have the super strength, or the telepathic abilities, or the insane rage that we've seen from Spock and Tuvok on occasion despite being the same race some fifty generations ago. And the telepathic abilities aren't new developments either according to TNG with the Stone of Gol. I suppose maybe the emotions can be explained by them trading logic for rigid conformism. Either way, it is nice to see the Romulans behaving more like what I would expect from ''evil Vulcans''.
Re: What I Like Most About Picard and Discovery S3
Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:22 pm
by Link8909
I've always like Star Trek Discovery and Star Trek Picard myself despite their flaws, and one of those reasons is exactly what Winter said and why I also enjoy films like The Wrath of Khan, First Contact, and Beyond, and the series Deep Space Nine, all of them build on the lore of the series and move the characters and world forward in a meaningful way.
While I do like Discovery's first two seasons for what they are, I do agree that I was a misstep to not utilise The Original Series ascetic, I'm not opposed to the change and I think the Enterprise redesign in season two (both interior and exterior) is a great balance of keeping to the classic while also modernising, but I am against the mentality of Bryan Fuller's reasons for those changes.
As for Star Wars, I to see Winter's point on this as well, and the major thing I feel about The Sequel Trilogy is that it was made with the mentality of apologising for The Prequel Trilogy, all three films were made to be the most Star Warsy type films they could be, and ultimately as you said they didn't move the universe forward, and overall it felt like it didn't take enough risks.
Meanwhile for Star Trek, for good and for ill, they are taking all the risks, and not playing it safe, and trying new things like bringing an older Picard back and not in a uniform, making the Short Treks, or going to the 32nd century and crippling the Federation and Starfleet, even Star Trek Lower Decks is taking a risk of being an animated comedy set on the least important ship in the fleet (still can't watch it so no spoilers please), and of me personally is why for all the flaws that the new series might have, I can never really hate them.
Re: What I Like Most About Picard and Discovery S3
Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:59 pm
by Link8909
Riedquat wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:43 am
I've not seen Discovery S3 but I have seen Picard, and I agree with many of the complaints about it and would add some naive politics to it (although I rather liked the new Seven), but overall enjoyed it. A bit of a different take on Trek, not (as much) being about Star Fleet and what it gets up to.
One point I don't think has been mentioned was seeing some completely different Romulans (I'm afraid it's been a while and I've forgotten all the names). Too often in Trek cultures are too monolithic. Good to see at least a little difference there.
Indeed, not just visually like having Romulans from both the TOS and TNG eras and acknowledging that both exist (something that I feel could have worked for the Klingons over on Discovery), but also seeing the civilian side of the Roman culture and a more spiritual side with the introduction of the Qowat Milat, as well as all the little bit of lore added throughout the season, and I do hope we get more next season.
Re: What I Like Most About Picard and Discovery S3
Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:16 pm
by Link8909
Winter wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:19 am
Sir Will wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:50 am
Yeah the Sequel Trilogy sucks. I didn't think the borg were defeated by Voyager, just hurt. The Queen could be revived somewhere else and they still had other hubs. While it had issues, I still enjoyed Picard and I look forward to a second season. My main gripes were pacing and that it went a little too far with giving everybody depressing backstories or fates. Still pissed about Hugh. But it certainly flows better from existing cannon than the ST did.
I always call it the Disney Sequel Trilogy as there is a Sequel Trilogy that not only avoided all the issues I have with TDST but is just a great story that BUILDS on the foundation of TOT and that's the Thrawn Trilogy. Just a fun bit of pointless trivia about me
anyways.
I also enjoyed Picard though I also didn't like what happened with Hugh and while I was okay with how 7 of 9 was written I get why it annoyed her long time fans as she didn't act that much like 7 of 9 though I have to admit I'm so glad they got her out of that stupid catsuit.
My main gripe with Picard is actually the same I have with Discovery and that's how the show is filmed. There are VERY few moments in both shows were a scene isn't filmed normally so as a result the scenes that should be slower in pace end up feeling strangely fast paced even though they're not that different from slower/calmer scenes.
I have the same problem with the first two films in the Kelvin Timeline, TDST and pretty much every Michael Bay movie. The directors of these projects keep moving the camera around like they were an action scene so it feels like you can never get a moment to breath because your mind is translating the movement that is happening as action of some sort so it becomes exusting for the viewer.
To show what I mean go and watch any scene from the stories I just mentioned and compare it with this scene from Star Trek Beyond which was a film directed by action Director Justin Lin from the Fast and the Furious.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CysGBZUHW34
While beyond has it's far share of action scenes that stick to how the other films in the Kelvin Timeline are shot the quieter moments are shot in a more calm and relaxed style. The shots are stagnate and still and focus on characters for just the right amount of time instead of jumping around person to person.
In the scene I just showed note how when Kirk and Bones are drinking note the shot linger on Bones as he's shown to clearly be enjoying the drink instead of cutting back and forth between the two. We need more scenes that are shot like this in Star Trek. Star Wars is already starting to move away from this as shown in The Mandalorian and The Clone Wars so hopefully Trek will follow suit.
That's fair, I think season two of Discovery definitely had the weakest cinematography with it's overuse of the camera crane, but I personally enjoy the overall direction in both Picard and Discovery season three, Picard in particular has more quite moments with the camera holding still and letting the actors shine, my personal favourite shots of the whole season is both the simple overlay of the holo-image of Locutus over Picard, and the scene when Picard first beams into the Cube and starts to get flashes of his time as Locutus.
I also agree that it's great the Seven isn't in that catsuit anymore, and I love that she is more expressive and embraced more of her humanity since her time on Voyager, it's another example of moving the characters forward in the series that I like, as opposed to in Star Trek Online during the Delta Rising arc where we interact with Seven (with Jeri Ryan reprising her role) and she's exactly the same as she was on Voyager (catsuit and everything) and thats set ten years after Star Trek Picard.