Sfdebris.net

As is always the case everyone is entitled to their own opinion and while I may not always agree with everyone I do honestly respect anyone who has a different opinion then mine. If you like or dislike either the Prequel Trilogy or the Disney Sequel Trilogy that's great and I mean that sincerely. I am not here to judge anyone and only get annoyed when someone has the whole "Me enjoying or not enjoying something makes me better then you and you're all sheep for not enjoying what I enjoy."

I can like or dislike something you don't but neither opinion makes me right or wrong, they're just my opinion, I can speak for no one but myself, nothing more nothing less.

With that said I have noticed a double standards in regards to opinions on TPT and TDST. Things like fans being unable to buy the idea that Padme would fall in love with Anakin given how he acts but are completely okay with Rey just falling in love with Kylo in The Last Jedi despite the fact that he murdered Han just a few days ago. It gets to the point that, just based on the word of a known mass murder, Rey decides to turn on Luke just hours after she sweared to not turn on Luke like Kylo did because Kylo said that Luke tried to kill him.

So, acting like a creep, why would anyone fall for him (which is a VERY valid point BTW, I may like the Prequels but I'm not defending THAT) but murder, mass murder, attempted murder, mind rape and verbal abuse, that's perfectly okay because he says he's the wounded party in all this. This is like Twilight only Edward never murdered anyone Bella was close to and was even willing to respect his love rival while Kylo tried to kill Finn and put him in a coma (which TLJ fails to mention BTW).

That's not the criticism that bugs me.

There's also how fans are quick to point to the fanservice and contrived coincidence of TPT like how Anakin was the one who created C-3P0 and how Chewie met Yoda but are completely okay with Han and Chewie just happening to find the Falcon after she left Tatooine, how Anakin's Lightsaber just happened to be at Maz's Cantina, or how the whole plot of the Trilogy is beat for beat the Original Trilogy right down to major plot twists taking place at basically the same time they did in TOT.

That's not the criticism that bugs me.

No, criticism that bugs me is how people get annoyed at Lucas for putting to much emphases on the importance of the Lightsabers in comparison to how TDST played them down... I'm truly sorry to be rude here but were we watching the same films? TDST puts more Emphases on Lightsabers then any both TPT, TOT and The Thrawn Trilogy combined... Hell it puts more emphases on the Luke's Lightsaber then any other Trilogy and THE CLONE WARS Did.

The biggest point to this argument is that Obi-Wan berates Anakin for losing his weapon and that his weapon is his life. Thing of it is, that's part of a joke as both Obi-Wan and Anakin keep losing their lightsaber throughout Attack of the Clones. Seriously at the end of the movie Both lose their lightsabers and need to get knew ones. Even Mace Windu loses his lightsaber in the final battle briefly and there's even a deleted part of Dooku's fight with Yoda where the Sith gets a second lightsaber and loses it in the final duel of the film.

By contrast, TDST puts so much emphases on the lightsabers that it keeps making a big deal about when is lost or gets destroyed. Just look at how the films treat Rey finding Anakin's lightsaber, or how big a deal it makes about Kylo wanting it and Rey getting it. Or how there's literally an entire scene where Rey and Kylo fight over Anakin's lightsaber which is then rendered completely pointless in the next film because Rey just fixes it and then the film uses Two Ligthsabers to kill Palpatine... again.

And the last scene in the Trilogy puts more emphases about where the Lightsabers end up then it does about Rey's character.

Again, if you feel that Lucas put to much emphases on these weapons and felt that Disney underplayed them, more power to you but I honestly see it as the reverse I think Lucas was poking fun at how much emphases the series put on the blades and Disney decided to just play up one Lightsaber that no one really was that broken up about when it was lost the first time. Hell, one of the rumored opening shots was of Luke's severed hand flying through space while still holding Anakin's lightsaber before it crashed onto Jakku. No, I have no idea if this is real and if it is I've no idea who thought that would be a scene that made even an inch of sense.

And again, don't take this as me telling everyone who thinks the opposet of this that they're wrong. I'm just a viewer with an opinion who gushes about how well written a catgirl and an Amerasian Magical Girl are. Take my opinion and do with it as you will knowing that I'm neither right or wrong about any of this.

Padame isn't really seen as a peer to Anakin. He was a little boy when they first met and she continued to see him as somewhat premature in social relation up until their intimate relationship.

It's pretty much reverse in the dynamic between Rey and Kylo. He's powerful and backed by the throne just as Padme was, and is the one content in the imperial structure. He actually gets pulled to her as subtly as Padme does to Anakin.

Likewise though, Rey sees in Kylo the same pressures that Padme saw in Anakin, which was the most competent budding of their relationship imo.

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:38 pm Padame isn't really seen as a peer to Anakin. He was a little boy when they first met and she continued to see him as somewhat premature in social relation up until their intimate relationship.

It's pretty much reverse in the dynamic between Rey and Kylo. He's powerful and backed by the throne just as Padme was, and is the one content in the imperial structure. He actually gets pulled to her as subtly as Padme does to Anakin.

Likewise though, Rey sees in Kylo the same pressures that Padme saw in Anakin, which was the most competent budding of their relationship imo.

That's a very interesting argument but there's still the issue of Kylo murdering Han, putting Finn in a coma and trying to torture/mind rape Rey just a few days ago. Over on She-Ra Adora knew Catra since they were kids and knew there there was good in her but when it was clear that Catra wouldn't let anyone save her and after she nearly destroyed the world just to spite Adora which resulted in a character getting locked in another dimension Adora drew the line until and gave up saving Catra.

Rey doesn't actually know Kylo and their means of being able to communicate with each other only allows them to speak yo one another not read each others thoughts given how much they need to ask each other what the other is thinking/feeling.

But that's the reason I can't buy this romance, I don't care if Kylo is being nice to her or that he has a sympathetic backstory he murdered and hurt people Rey was close to for petty reasons and that's her only connection to him. And just 3 chats with him is enough for her to not only decided that he is worth redemption but attacks Luke because he MIGHT have tried to kill Kylo. She has no evidence, only Kylo's word. The word of someone who openly admits to not only killing Han but a whole school of studence who wouldn't join him.

Again, Catra was someone Adora knew since they were kids and is clearly in love with but even she had to draw the line after what she did in Season 3. Even Scorpia, who's obviously been crushing on Catra for almost 4 seasons, leaves her once she understands that Catra is a bad friend.

One of She-Ra's themes is that it is okay to let go of people and still love them but realize that you are not responsible for their actions. If they show that they are willing to change then you do have the option of being there for them but that is not required.

TDST says that as long as someone has a sad background then their horrible actions are justified and that you should put all they've done aside for them because you can fix them. I've said this before, I've had to deal with people like this in the real world and I do not like how TDST and TLJ in particularly, promote this line of thinking. I didn't cut 50 Shades of Grey and Twilight any slack on this I'm not giving Star Wars any special treatment just because it's Star Wars.

Can you explain your grievance without bringing up some false dichotomy with the new movies?

You wrote so much which boils down to, "Why do people complain about this in the prequels, but they don't complain about it in the new movies". Not everyone has these opinions and criticisms. Different people complain about different things.

If you want to say, "I like X, I do not like Y" you can do that without having to construct some hypothetical group of people you disagree with. Or hell, point to a specific critic who said things and complain about THAT CRITIC.

This amount of writing on this is tiresome and provides no new insight.
To paraphrase Patrick (H) Willems, "These are movies about space wizards made for children."
https://youtu.be/0PjlM2R88E0

"I killed them, I killed them all. There dead. Every single one of them. But not just the men, but the women, and the children too. There like animals! And I slaughtered theme like animals! I hate them!"= a movie about space wizards made for children.

Rocketboy1313 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:11 pm Can you explain your grievance without bringing up some false dichotomy with the new movies?

You wrote so much which boils down to, "Why do people complain about this in the prequels, but they don't complain about it in the new movies". Not everyone has these opinions and criticisms. Different people complain about different things.

If you want to say, "I like X, I do not like Y" you can do that without having to construct some hypothetical group of people you disagree with. Or hell, point to a specific critic who said things and complain about THAT CRITIC.

This amount of writing on this is tiresome and provides no new insight.
To paraphrase Patrick (H) Willems, "These are movies about space wizards made for children."
https://youtu.be/0PjlM2R88E0

Fair point, it's just the majority of the criticism of TPT vs. TDST HAS been condemning one while praising the other for the exact same thing. And, again, I made it clear that these are just my opinion, nothing more or less. I just noticed that several fans were part of a double standard when it came to TPT and TDST.

So, it' not so much a false dichotomy but more of, those who I have seen the most of. Just look at Rey and Kylo, everyone whom I have seen praising it were people critiquing Twilight for the same thing. Kylo is outright terrible to Rey and hurts those around her and is only interested in her for superficial reasons just like Bella and Edward are. Not saying that I'm right I just see this and it bugs me.

However, I am pushing things to far and while I may have things going badly that is no excuse to do this. So, I sincerely apologize and try to avoid doing this in the future.

I think part of why there are fans more accepting of something like Reylo has everything to do with the chemistry between Ridley and Driver, whereas the chemistry between Portman and Christensen was practically non-existent. To sum it up, it's all about the execution rather than the ideas.

For what it's worth, I rank TROS at #6 and ROTS at #7. While I'm sure there could have been a story in that film that is conceptually better than what TROS offered, it's done so poorly that its inherent value is moot. TROS is at the very bottom as far as the Originals and Sequels are concerned, but unlike the prequels, it's at least enjoyable to watch in terms of acting, directing, production, etc. There's a certain energy to those films that's utterly lacking in the prequels. Adam Driver as an actor manages to do more in the last 20 minutes as Ben Solo with zero dialogue more than Hayden Christensen did in two whole films. I was completely against the idea of Kylo Ren being redeemed before TROS came out, but purely because of Driver's acting he not only turned me around on that but made me wish Ben Solo had actually lived so that there could have been more opportunities to take like Ben facing his crimes in trial or even just exiling himself and trying to atone for something he never can. But because of Abrams' short sightedness, that can never happen unless a filmmaker decides to have the Force bring back Ben Solo from the dead, which I would be all in for just because Adam Driver is THAT good of an actor.

I thought the other day how interesting it would have been if Hayden as Anakin would have appeared instead of Ford as Han during Ben returning to the light. Kylo's been asking for guidance from Vader, only for Anakin to give guidance to Ben, and that's what helps bring him back to the light. "Finish what I started" (defeat the Emperor) which would have been pretty profound on a thematic level. But then again, it wouldn't have been as good as the scene with Ford, because Christensen just isn't that good of an actor and wouldn't have stood well next to Driver. That's why it was ultimately wiser to just bring back Ford as a "memory".

Winter wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:32 pm

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:38 pm Padame isn't really seen as a peer to Anakin. He was a little boy when they first met and she continued to see him as somewhat premature in social relation up until their intimate relationship.

It's pretty much reverse in the dynamic between Rey and Kylo. He's powerful and backed by the throne just as Padme was, and is the one content in the imperial structure. He actually gets pulled to her as subtly as Padme does to Anakin.

Likewise though, Rey sees in Kylo the same pressures that Padme saw in Anakin, which was the most competent budding of their relationship imo.

That's a very interesting argument but there's still the issue of Kylo murdering Han, putting Finn in a coma and trying to torture/mind rape Rey just a few days ago. Over on She-Ra Adora knew Catra since they were kids and knew there there was good in her but when it was clear that Catra wouldn't let anyone save her and after she nearly destroyed the world just to spite Adora which resulted in a character getting locked in another dimension Adora drew the line until and gave up saving Catra.

Rey doesn't actually know Kylo and their means of being able to communicate with each other only allows them to speak yo one another not read each others thoughts given how much they need to ask each other what the other is thinking/feeling.

But that's the reason I can't buy this romance, I don't care if Kylo is being nice to her or that he has a sympathetic backstory he murdered and hurt people Rey was close to for petty reasons and that's her only connection to him. And just 3 chats with him is enough for her to not only decided that he is worth redemption but attacks Luke because he MIGHT have tried to kill Kylo. She has no evidence, only Kylo's word. The word of someone who openly admits to not only killing Han but a whole school of studence who wouldn't join him.

Again, Catra was someone Adora knew since they were kids and is clearly in love with but even she had to draw the line after what she did in Season 3. Even Scorpia, who's obviously been crushing on Catra for almost 4 seasons, leaves her once she understands that Catra is a bad friend.

One of She-Ra's themes is that it is okay to let go of people and still love them but realize that you are not responsible for their actions. If they show that they are willing to change then you do have the option of being there for them but that is not required.

TDST says that as long as someone has a sad background then their horrible actions are justified and that you should put all they've done aside for them because you can fix them. I've said this before, I've had to deal with people like this in the real world and I do not like how TDST and TLJ in particularly, promote this line of thinking. I didn't cut 50 Shades of Grey and Twilight any slack on this I'm not giving Star Wars any special treatment just because it's Star Wars.

This seems everything to do with the sequel trilogy and not much to do about the prequel trilogy. As far as the question in the title of the thread, comparing them isn't the same.

Makeshift Python wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:23 am I think part of why there are fans more accepting of something like Reylo has everything to do with the chemistry between Ridley and Driver, whereas the chemistry between Portman and Christensen was practically non-existent. To sum it up, it's all about the execution rather than the ideas.

I agree that Ridley and Driver had MUCH better chemistry then Portman and Christensen but I think the execution is only part of the issue here as after ROS most fans have been turned off from Reylo. Partly because many of them didn't like that Ben died and partly because, unlike Catra, Kylo/Ben didn't actually do anything to redeem himself. He just decided to not be bad anymore and went on wanting Rey because "love".

For what it's worth, I rank TROS at #6 and ROTS at #7. While I'm sure there could have been a story in that film that is conceptually better than what TROS offered, it's done so poorly that its inherent value is moot. TROS is at the very bottom as far as the Originals and Sequels are concerned, but unlike the prequels, it's at least enjoyable to watch in terms of acting, directing, production, etc. There's a certain energy to those films that's utterly lacking in the prequels. Adam Driver as an actor manages to do more in the last 20 minutes as Ben Solo with zero dialogue more than Hayden Christensen did in two whole films. I was completely against the idea of Kylo Ren being redeemed before TROS came out, but purely because of Driver's acting he not only turned me around on that but made me wish Ben Solo had actually lived so that there could have been more opportunities to take like Ben facing his crimes in trial or even just exiling himself and trying to atone for something he never can. But because of Abrams' short sightedness, that can never happen unless a filmmaker decides to have the Force bring back Ben Solo from the dead, which I would be all in for just because Adam Driver is THAT good of an actor.

I agree that Driver gave a great performance but in terms of use in the story I think Anakin was better utilized. You can honestly cut Ben from the last act of the movie and nothing would change. You don't even need to kill Rey all she did was just deflect Palpatine's lightning back at him you can just have it were she killed Palpatine and leaves. Same thing in Duel of the Fates, Kylo doesn't really get to do much in terms of the plot and most of what he does could be done by other characters.

Say what you will about the Prequels but given how much the Clone Wars was able to expand on the ideas of those films into a show that is LOVED by fans and critics alike really highlights just how much could be done with both this setting and those characters. I honestly think that Kylo was suppose to die in his duel with Rey and it was changed so he could live mainly so Rey wouldn't have to deal with the fact that she killed someone. That's just a theory but one that does match what happens in the film proper.

I thought the other day how interesting it would have been if Hayden as Anakin would have appeared instead of Ford as Han during Ben returning to the light. Kylo's been asking for guidance from Vader, only for Anakin to give guidance to Ben, and that's what helps bring him back to the light. "Finish what I started" (defeat the Emperor) which would have been pretty profound on a thematic level. But then again, it wouldn't have been as good as the scene with Ford, because Christensen just isn't that good of an actor and wouldn't have stood well next to Driver. That's why it was ultimately wiser to just bring back Ford as a "memory".

I thought that myself and also, why is it that Anakin NEVER appeared to Ben throughout the Trilogy? Ignoring how the film completely renders Anakin's story completely pointless (both with Palpatine's return, Ben Solo turning to the dark side AND his kids dying and the person who takes on his name is the grand daughter of the man who ruined his life) why didn't anyone think to include Anakin in this story. They got Christensen back to voice Anakin so they could have done it. But no, he has a few lines of dialogue addressed to Rey while Ford and Driver reenact the Clark and Pa Kent from Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice.

And that's another thing that bugs me, the scene with Han and Kylo/Ben in ROS is point for point the same as that scene with Clark and Pa Kent from BVS and suffers the same problem. There's no explanation for how these two are talking, both fathers are here to get their respective sons to move in a certain direction in the plot and both just raise a bunch more questions then they answer.

I mean, I guess ROS' is a bit more justifiable with the Force but it's been established that only Jedi can live on after death and that requires training to achieve this. Even Palpatine's BS in ROS is just a means of delaying his inevitable death and not a means of living on like the Jedi do. The Sith have a similar method in the old EU but it's not the same thing as what the Sith have is more an echo of what was and not the actual spirit like what we see with the Jedi.

I'm all for living some things unanswered but this is not one of those things. I didn't like it in BVS and I don't like it in ROS. Honestly, it feels like more shock bait with a bit of nostalgia to cover up the flaws that everyone had with Clark and Pa Kent's scene in BVS.

My theory about Force ghosts has always been that you can only speak with those you actually share a past with and that you know how to channel the Force. The only ghosts that we ever see appear for Luke is Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin. No other Jedi appear because there is no connection between Luke and Mace Windu. Likewise, Rey only sees the ghosts of Luke and Leia at the end of TROS, and nobody else shows up because they're no one she ever had interacted with besides Ben (which would have been awkward). This would also explain why no ghost appeared before Luke during his years of exile because he had cut himself off from the Force, and it was only once he reconnected that Yoda could appear before him talk some sense.

The only thing that kinda breaks that theory is that Rey hears the voices of Jedi of the past encouraging her to persist, but they're only voices so there's probably some wiggle room there.