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Oh yeah, I'm going here. Again let me stress that I LOVE Avatar and Zuko is not only one of the best characters in the series and of all time but Also the best example of Executive Meddling as Zuko was created by the higher ups basically telling the show runners to include an ongoing threat as the Fire Nation didn't have anyone who was the face for that nation. And even with my issue with his redemption aside there's a reason Zuko's redemption arc is seen as the go to example of how to write a redemption arc. I've even used it to show how I hope Namaari's arc in Raya and the Last Dragon will be handled.

However. There is one major issue I have with his redemption arc and I still find it to be a moment that annoys the Hell out of me even all these years later and that's Zuko's Redemption Rejection in Book 2.

After Lake Laogai Zuko falls ill as the choice he made was so drastic it causes some sort of in balance in him but Iroh assures him that once it's done he will have undergone a transformation. After this Zuko... Does a complete 180 and starts acting like a completely different character. He's smiling, he's enjoying his life in Ba Sing Se, he starts to make peace with Katara and chooses to face Azula when he meets her in Palace of Ba Sing Se...

And then he has one conversation with Azula who offers him a chance to return home with honor and goes back to acting like he did pre-Lake Laogai. This PISSED me off back when it first came out and every time I think I'm ready to except it I find that it STILL Pisses me off for the longest time I didn't understand why until saw Catra pull off something similar only without the frustrations.

One thing I need to note is that I wasn't the only one who hated this moment back when it first came out fans were Furious, writing fics, making fan art and essays that tried to justify this part of Zuko's arc, critiquing it or trying to have it be the result of some sort of elaborate plan on Zuko's part to help Team Avatar even though nothing in the show supported this idea.

I remember one fan comic that had Jet, JET, insulting Zuko for regressing as a character before Zuko's fans came in to tear him apart for betraying them and another that was all about Zutara becoming canon and Bryke deciding to retcon that because they were afraid of losing half their fanbase only to lose half their fanbase with the canon story.

By contrast, while many fans were angry at Catra's Redemption Rejection in both Season's 1 and 2/3, most fans were okay with it. Many videos and essays, even from people who wanted to see Catra redeemed, noted how they found both times Catra choose to remain with the Horde over joining Adora to be well written and engaging with many even saying how they were re-watching both episodes several times because of how well written they felt it was.

Why is this? Because Catra's fall was set up not only in the episode where she falls further but also in the episodes before it.

Going back to what I said before Zuko was shown to to be at peace. He smiled, he was happy and he was standing up against Azula and making friends with Katara. NOTHING in the episodes after Lake Laogai showed that Zuko was in anyway, shape or form, unhappy with the life he was in and was committed to his new life.

And this also something that has been made fun of in fan works with one even making the joke that Zuko was on drugs that Iroh gave him during his "transformation" that had a negative effect on Firebenders.

By contrast, Catra in her ideal world she creates for herself and Adora there are still signs of her more toxic elements still shining through showing that this world she's created is nothing more then a gilded cage for her and Adora and before that her fall into darkness and despair was shown in all it's horror and during her take over of the Crimson Waste when Scorpia suggests staying in the Crimson Waste because Catra is clearly happier there then in the Horde Catra visibly struggles with this and leaves to find Adora.

That last point is important because not only does Catra still need to know she's beaten Adora but she's likely subconsciously seeking out the girl she loves because of her warped world view. Power and Control equals importance to others and love in her mind and she needs to know that Adora is beaten because that will mean she no longer needs her love.

So, when Adora reveals that Shadow Weaver is in Bright Moon Catra can't handle the idea and equates Shadow Weaver defecting to the Rebellion with Shadow Weaver choose Adora over her. This starts a downward spiral for Catra for the rest of Season 3 that culminates in her doing something that will destroy the world but she doesn't care because all she wants right now is for Adora to lose.

And thus, she pulls the lever because she thinks that will allow her to win. All of that was set up throughout the first 3 seasons and in every episode leading up to this moment.

Zuko choosing to stand against the heroes and with his sister was not. He's spent the whole season against his sister and then one offering to come home (which is the same thing she offered in the First episode of Season 2 BTW) is all it takes to undo all his progress his made.

I'm not saying that's out of character for Zuko I'm saying that nothing in season 2 supported this and that goes doubly true for all the episodes leading up to the finale of Season 2. This bugged me back in 2006 and it bugs me now.

Again, Zuko is a great character but I honestly feel that his redemption arc has it's flaws and for me this is the biggest one there is.

Yeah, Zuko's heel turn at the end of Book 2 made me angry. It is one detail they did better with Catra because you can see what is driving her through every step.

With Zuko, not so much. I can understand someone wanting to go home, I could see him turning on Team Avatar, I mean they were enemies to begin with, but that he could actually trust his sister? The same sister who has already lied to his face and was sent to bring him and Iroh back as prisoners?

At the end of the fight when you see Iroh glaring at Zuko he's probably thinking 'how dumb are you, really?' Maybe that was the idea, that he was young and impulsive and was allowing his hope runaway with him but it was one time i wanted to reach into the screen and slap him. I can't remember ever wanting to do that with Catra.

phantom000 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:26 pm Yeah, Zuko's heel turn at the end of Book 2 made me angry. It is one detail they did better with Catra because you can see what is driving her through every step.

I honestly think that She-Ra handled Catra's final redemption a bit better than Zuko's. Let's look at everything leading up to Zuko's leaving the fire nation to join Aang. He arrives home and learns that Azula told Ozai that he, Zuko, was the one who killed Aang. He has his father's approval but not the love he thought he would have but in fear that Aang may still be alive he hires an assassin to find and kill Aang.

Then we have the Beach where Zuko tries to deal with the fact that despite having everything he ever wanted he's still not happy. Soon after that he learns that he is the grandchild of both Fire Lord Sozin and Avatar Roku which causes him to start falling back into questioning his nature.

Then finally Nightmares and Daydreams we see Zuko happy with his life and is offered a seat at a war meeting where he learns something that causes him to turn traitor which we later learn was Ozai deciding to launch a Made Phoenix King "BURN THEM ALL" plan because why rule a county with working everything when you can just burn it to the ground to prove that you really are the Biggus Dickus of all the lands.

All of this is good but it honestly feels rather rushed as we only get 4 episodes of Zuko realizing he's not happy with the life he has and decides to turn on his father. Again, it's great especially when he confronts his father in the second half of Day of Black Sun but we get three episodes of him in the life he thought he wanted before giving it all up for a scene that wasn't shown (understandably) to us and then one episode of him joining the heroes after defecting from the Fire Nation.

Catra has a whole season of her losing everything (her friends, her empire, Hordak's trust and Adora's love (or so Catra thinks)) and by the end she's literally at rock bottom with nowhere to go but up (again literally as she's brought up to space).

Then comes Season five where Catra realizes that she is truly out of her depth and has no way to overthrow Horde Prime and that she will never reclaim the power she had. Then we get two episodes of her bonding with Glimmer and coming to terms with the fact that she still loves Adora and makes the choice to save Adora even at the cost of her own life.

Adora then spends a whole episode coming to terms with the fact that there is still good in Catra which leads her to going to try and save her even though there is no benefit in doing so, as it is a personal mission for Adora. Then Adora saves Catra and during said rescue mission outright tells Catra that she still cares for Catra and in the episode after that Catra comes to realize that she wants to go back to Etheria and put in the work to making herself better. And she does so because she wants to get better not because she's trying to earn Adora's love because she thinks it's love that will never be reciprocated. This by the way takes place over the course of 6 episodes instead of the 4 Zuko had.

Again, both Zuko's and Catra's redemption arcs are great but Catra's avoids a number of issues I have with Zuko's. Catra's reasons for remaining with the Horde is built up and shown why she does what she does and the same thing goes for her redemption arc.

The only mistake of Catra and Zuko's redemption arcs were they had any at all.

Zuko choosing Azula and his father over Aang was the best decision they could have made storytelling wise. Sadly, they backtracked too soon.

Catra should have ended up the Eternal Immortal Leader of the Horde ForeverTM.

Its almost as if humans are illogical beings with multiple conflicting emotions and desires. Sometimes we act one way, sometimes in the span of moments we can act another. Personally I think its totally in character for a hot-headed, emotion driven young man who was betrayed by his own father to be a bit unpredictable.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:22 pm The only mistake of Catra and Zuko's redemption arcs were they had any at all.

Zuko choosing Azula and his father over Aang was the best decision they could have made storytelling wise. Sadly, they backtracked too soon.

Catra should have ended up the Eternal Immortal Leader of the Horde ForeverTM.

I find it interesting that I keep seeing this sort of thing pop up every time someone is redeemed. In the resent film Raya and the Last Dragon many felt that Namaari had done to much to be forgiven and that she should have died for her sins. Having villains turn to the side of good and spend their life fixing their mistakes isn't really a new idea but it is one that we're not accustomed to.

So, let's ask the question, when does someone deserve the chance at redemption? I've made it no secret that I felt that Kylo Ren's redemption was weak and that he didn't deserve the first chance Rey had given him. And yet, I was willing to give Zuko, Catra and now Namaari their shots at redemption and I'm happy they took it despite some falls starts? For that matter why have I refused to see Shadow Weaver as truly redeemed despite all the aid she gave to the heroes when she joined them?

Let's be honest, Catra, Namaari and Zuko all screwed up BIG Time. Catra captured Bow and Glimmer so they could be cursed i.e. Torture them, left Adora to die in Promise and invaded Bright Moon and this was all in her first season before she destroys reality just to spite Adora. Zuko helped conquer Ba Sing Se and, indirectly, got Aang killed and when he learned that Aang might be alive he sent a bounty hunter to locate and kill Aang just in case he was alive. And Namaari helped start the apocalypse when she betrayed Raya and later shot Sisu (not intentionally but still) which nearly doomed the world.

So, why give them a chance? Because even with all this we saw that they were all good people. We saw Zuko show true honor and concern for the safety for others, even those who were his enemies. Catra showed kindness for Scorpia and Entrapta as well as her love for Adora and Namaari's main motivation was to help her tribe and when she saw Sisu she was the first to suggest to work with Raya to restore the Dragon Gem and save the world.

But most importantly of all they ALL showed that they regretted their choices and kept trying to look for ways to make it right. Kylo and Shadow Weaver did not.

Kylo shows no real sign that he regrets ANYTHING he did and his reason for becoming good basically boils down to just not wanting to be bad anymore. Sure, he didn't want to kill his mother but there's a difference between wanting to spare one person and regretting your choices which include and are not limited to MURDER. Kylo killed his father, killed his uncle (indirectly but still intentionally) and killed several of his fellow students who wouldn't join him when he went full Dark Side.

Shadow Weaver, by Stevenson's own admission, was never suppose to be seen as redeemed and the show itself backs this up. Everything Shadow Weaver does was for her own self interest and damn how it would hurt anyone else. Even in her final moments she sacrifices herself in the belief that Adora and Catra will HAVE to forgive her and will HAVE to tell everyone what a great hero she was. Hence why her last words are "You're Welcome" WOW after everything you are STILL an @$$hole!!!

Catra, Namaari and Zuko's redemption arcs were all set up as we saw their more noble qualities shine through and saw that they all realized that they had made mistakes and wanted to work to correct their mistakes. The only thing any of them wanted was to do what they believe to be the right thing and while all three rejected the chance to redeem themselves in the end they choose to do what was morally right instead of serving themselves.

Having them remain villains would have been a mistake because that's not were their arcs were heading. I argue that Kylo should never had been redeemed because he never showed any noble or good traits before his "redemption" and Shadow Weaver was never meant to be seen as redeemed.

Its not a case of deserve or not. Redemption is something that you strive toward, not being given. That's forgiveness.

I'm speaking merely of the fact that sometimes sympathetic characters choosing NOT to be redeemed is something that is more interesting than the alternative. One of the things I liked in the short lived AGENT CARTER show was that one of the protagonists is initially antagonistic to Peggy, until it's revealed he's suffering from terrible guilt for his actions during the war, with the two bonding as well as having some romantic chemistry.

Then at the end?

He betrays her because he's given a chance at a promotion and acknowledging her would undercut his position in the sexist group.

Redemption is rejected.

I personally think Zuko's arc worked really well. I think the possibility of being finally accepted by his father, coupled with his sense of duty and honour (bearing in mind that Iroh really *was* asking him to choose treachery), would have been tempting enough for him to turn his back on Iroh.

And I also think that once he got back it's perfectly in character for him to slowly come to realise what a horrible mistake that was, and to finally try to make things right, to help the Avatar and to seek forgiveness from Iroh.

Personally I agree with those who are strongly against Azula having a redemption arc, however. From the very beginning we see that Zuko is a deeply conflicted and confused young man, with potential for good but having convinced himself that sticking to his father's cause is the honourable thing to do. In hindsight the evil we see in him in the first season is mostly down to his being the main face of the fire nation rather than any particular personal evil (indeed I love the scene in The Blue Spirit which, deliberately or not, appears to reference Balance of Terror). Azula, on the other hand, is sadistic and cruel.

Muzer wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:12 pm I personally think Zuko's arc worked really well. I think the possibility of being finally accepted by his father, coupled with his sense of duty and honour (bearing in mind that Iroh really *was* asking him to choose treachery), would have been tempting enough for him to turn his back on Iroh.

And I also think that once he got back it's perfectly in character for him to slowly come to realise what a horrible mistake that was, and to finally try to make things right, to help the Avatar and to seek forgiveness from Iroh.

I agree, I just don't like how little set up there was for his bad choice. All throughout the Book 2 Zuko not enjoying his life as a fugitive and wanting to go home which is why I'm willing to give this scene some slack. But in the 3 episodes leading up to the moment where he makes the wrong choice everything we get in those episodes show him at peace, that he's come to terms with his life here and is ready to move on.

Then Azula, the one who has done nothing but lie to Zuko AND has been spending the whole season trying to capture/kill him, who has given Zuko ZERO reason to trust what she has to offer tells him that she will make sure he returns home with honor and Zuko just excepts said offer.

Again, had they just shown Zuko frowning while talking with Iroh in the episodes before hand, or some other sign that he wasn't truly happy with his life in Ba Sing Se, THEN I wouldn't be as annoyed as I am with Book 2's finally. Again, Catra's decent into madness in Season 3 of She-Ra handled this a LOT better IMO. We see a number of warning signs that Catra is going to do something REALLY stupid before she makes her fatal choice at the end of Season 3 so when it comes it doesn't come out of nowhere.

But again, these are just my opinion, and I still love Zuko's arc as a whole and this is really my only real issue with it.

I liked Zuko's arc, but I agree that the last couple of episodes of Book 2 are weird for him - which is odd because otherwise Book 2 might be my favorite season of ATLA, with the format and storytelling being tightened up from S1, and two new major characters being introduced excellently.

As you said Winter I'm more willing to think it was just a mistake in execution, because Zuko's characterization in most of Book 2 works fine with him deciding to go back to the Fire Nation. His pride is clearly wounded by his refugee status and having to rely on others, he's frustrated by his inability to outdo Azula, and when he puts himself at personal risk for some citizens in the Earth Kingdom they (understandably, but no less hurtfully) reject him. Even as late as the Serpent's Pass and beginning of Ba Sing Se arc, I could still see such a thing. After all, Zuko's recent ally Jet had just tried to kill him in the middle of his own workplace for being a firebender. It would hardly be strange for Zuko to want to get out of life in exile by any means necessary.

I think the Ba Sing Se arc episodes simply overplayed their hand a bit. Zuko becoming more comfortable in his new life, to make a shocking twist when "every time I try to get out, they pull me back in" once Azula appears? Makes sense. Zuko getting physically ill and then seeming to have his personality shift to complete peace with being a tea shop waiter was too much of a whiplash from his previous behavior, and also makes his temptation by Azula confusing.