General Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel discussion thread.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think there was one of these on the old forums, so, time to recreate it.

This thread is to discuss all things pertaining to the Buffy the Vampire Slayer franchise, including BtVS, Angel, and the comics.*

*I've only read a few of them, although I quite enjoyed some of "Angel and Faith", particularly the first season.

[FaxModem1]

I rather enjoyed the franchise. The show jump-started the urban fantasy franchise in TV and movies. Though, it hasn't always aged well.

Sometimes it's preaching got grating. Remember season 4's message about how evil the 'big bad military' is? Especially for wanting to actually fight the forces of hell and protect the American people? No, only Buffy can/should do that, and Willow is going to complain that the Initiative is testing to see if it's possible to reform the monsters, and someday that they might be working at Wal-mart.

Meta-wise, it always struck me that Buffy is the show about the people who never left their home town after high school, and pretty much stayed the same person, for good or for bad, while Angel is about the people who got out of town, saw a bit more of the world, and are much better people as a result. When the two meet, they're radically different people, and they still have a connection, but you can tell one has seriously surpassed the other in a lot of ways.

[The Romulan Republic]

I rather enjoyed the franchise. The show jump-started the urban fantasy franchise in TV and movies.

Hmm, I'd say that Batman the Animated Series and Gargoyles count as televised urban fantasy. Both were successes, and both predated Buffy.

Buffy almost certainly had the greater cultural impact, at least indirectly, since its been a huge inspiration for both other SF franchises and, surprisingly, academia.

Though, it hasn't always aged well.

I don't know. I suppose some of its take on feminism and LGBT issues is behind the times, and of course some of the effects are hokey, but I think the strength of the writing and acting still carries the franchise fairly well.

Sometimes it's preaching got grating. Remember season 4's message about how evil the 'big bad military' is? Especially for wanting to actually fight the forces of hell and protect the American people? No, only Buffy can/should do that,

I don't think that's fair. In season five and onward, when Reilly joined a purely military unit, they were actually shown as reasonably effective in comparison.

So maybe its a retcon, but in hindsight, the message seems to be that the Initiative's problem, if anything, is that it wasn't pure military. It was Mrs. Frankenstein's pet project, run by people who were either corrupt, or clueless.

and Willow is going to complain that the Initiative is testing to see if it's possible to reform the monsters, and someday that they might be working at Wal-mart.

I don't recall that.

Its pretty obvious that the Initiative wasn't interested in reforming anyone, just experimenting on them and creating super soldiers.

Meta-wise, it always struck me that Buffy is the show about the people who never left their home town after high school, and pretty much stayed the same person, for good or for bad,

I disagree.

Even leaving aside the end of the series, which is basically about them moving on into a bigger world, the characters did grow a lot over the course of the series. Willow and Spike are the most notable examples, but you see it in the others as well.

Buffy herself is quite tragic, actually, especially if you compare the mostly cheerful, friendly girl of season one with the bitter, alienated, and often self-loathing and borderline suicidal woman of the final seasons. Its the story of a child having an unbearable burden placed on them and being slowly ground down by it, though the finale at least gives her a chance at a happy ending (if you ignore the comics, anyway).

while Angel is about the people who got out of town, saw a bit more of the world, and are much better people as a result. When the two meet, they're radically different people, and they still have a connection, but you can tell one has seriously surpassed the other in a lot of ways.

I don't know. I tend to see Angel more as a series about a man who tries to atone, but ends up making the same damn mistakes over and over again, and dragging down the people around him.

And Wesley's character arc is just bleak.

The one who I think has unambiguously come out of it a bigger and better person is Faith. I really wish we'd got that Faith spin-off show. The parts of Angel and Faith written from her perspective are often quite interesting.

Edit: I also get the feeling that Dawn probably has a decent shot at growing up to be a functional person, if her sister's world doesn't kill her.

[FaxModem1]

Well, as a comparison. Look at Cordelia compared to Buffy. Both got chosen by a higher power to do something. Both had a horrible burden placed on them. Both fought the forces of evil and tried to save lives. Both faced financial ruin, emotional pain, physical struggle, demons tormenting them, etc.

For Buffy, this broke her, and by the end of season 7, it was her way or the highway, with her still having a very black and white view on the world on good vs evil(which is what the Buffy series always had). This eventually ended with her being rather apathetic about anyone outside her viewpoint, and alienating anyone outside her immediate group of friends.(Angel and company were persona non grata to her and the rest of the Scooby gang, for example)

For Cordelia, this shaped her into a better person, who was more compassionate, more loving, and accepting of those who were different. The strain broke her as well, but she rose to it as a champion who fought for the little guy. But, she still fought on, and did what she could to make the world a better place.

Both end up dead, though. Cordelia just had friends who thought necromancy wasn't a good idea.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, as a comparison. Look at Cordelia compared to Buffy. Both got chosen by a higher power to do something. Both had a horrible burden placed on them. Both fought the forces of evil and tried to save lives. Both faced financial ruin, emotional pain, physical struggle, demons tormenting them, etc.

Its an interesting parallel, though it should be noted that a) Cordelia was given the choice to keep the visions, and did so willingly, b) Cordelia was an adult when she got the visions, and c) it ended with Cordelia being a pawn for a monster and dying, which undercuts the message somewhat.

For Buffy, this broke her, and by the end of season 7, it was her way or the highway, with her still having a very black and white view on the world on good vs evil(which is what the Buffy series always had). This eventually ended with her being rather apathetic about anyone outside her viewpoint, and alienating anyone outside her immediate group of friends.(Angel and company were persona non grata to her and the rest of the Scooby gang, for example)

Buffy's view isn't terribly black and white (not that their's anything inherently wrong with a simple good vs. evil story). Every character on Buffy is seriously flawed, and Buffy has a sufficiently nuanced view of vampires to be simultaneously killing them and sleeping with one.

I also didn't see Buffy as hostile to Angle following his departure, except on the issue of Faith, until after he had joined Wolfram and Hart. At which point, honestly, we only have Andrew's word to go on.

The comics are a whole different issue, of course.

For Cordelia, this shaped her into a better person, who was more compassionate, more loving, and accepting of those who were different. The strain broke her as well, but she rose to it as a champion who fought for the little guy. But, she still fought on, and did what she could to make the world a better place.

Both end up dead, though. Cordelia just had friends who thought necromancy wasn't a good idea.

Heh. And yeah, Season Six Willow is a bad friend.

Though actually, in "Angel and Faith", this is discussed. One of Faith's objections in the first issue to Angel's plan to bring back Giles (which shows that Angel isn't above necromancy himself) is to say that if it were possible, he would have done it when Cordelia died and he had the resources of Wolfram and Hart at his disposal.

The problem with resurrection the Buffyverse is that it only works for a "mystical" death, because magic creates a connection to bring the soul back or something. Otherwise, you can raise the body, but it won't have a soul. It may be that Cordelia's death didn't count because Jasmine merely put her in a coma, and she died later of natural causes. Though I'm just speculating here.

The one I can't figure out is Darla being brought back as human. Does being staked as a vampire count as a mystical death?

As to Angel's re-ensoulment (and Spike's), as near as I can tell, when someone is turned into a vampire, their soul is in a sort of limbo. Though that's somewhat speculative as well.

[MissKittyFantastico]

I enjoyed the first three seasons a lot - it was one of those shows everyone was watching, so I watched it, and it was quality stuff from talented people, so I liked it. Season four felt uneven to me, like they'd hit the high note they were always forging on towards when they blew up the school, and the question "So, now what?" had been answered satisfactorily to proceed, but not really powerfully; over the next two-seasons-eighteen-episodes the show slowly drifted from 'must watch' to 'habitual watch'.

But that wasn't really relevant anymore, because during season four, hi, I'm perfect. Without getting all emotional (because believe me, I will), Tara's my hero, and to this day means more to me than any other character I've encountered in anything. Also, holy Hannah she's gorgeous. (I manage, I like to think, to not take that to a creepy extreme about Amber Benson, even though admittedly I kind of can't shut up about how amazing she is too; I've met her twice (getting stuff signed, that is) and nobody had to file restraining orders or anything.) And up to that point Willow had always been my favourite character, so yeah, perfect fit.

As some of you might have guessed, this is also why that watched-until date was very specific... yeah. Didn't watch that episode, not gonna watch that episode, not gonna talk about that anymore.

I'd probably make an interesting case study of fandom, too, because - aside from 'Once More With Feeling' which, back before you could just check out Under Your Spell on youtube whenever you want, was rewatched many, many times - I only ever watched the show once, as it aired, but I spent years heavily involved in the Willow/Tara fanfic community. There's a convincing case to be made that the 'Tara' I remain massively invested in is far more a kind of gestalt of all the hundreds of stories I've read than the character as portrayed on TV, which I think is a rather fascinating possibility. Especially since that means, in addition to being a witch in an urban fantasy setting, the Tara I think of when I think of her is also a San Francisco artist, a teacher, an explorer, a Y-Wing pilot, princess, secret agent, Amazon warrior, Starfleet officer, racing driver, cabaret singer, fraggle, demon hunter, gladiator, genie (with a tail), mad scientist, giant three-headed monster, computer program, confused Scotswoman, telepathic secret police, fencer, dog, cat, walrus, I swear to god I'm not making any of those up. Most (not all) of the more outlandish ones were mine, too; I really got attached to the uberfic angle (to use the Xena term), translating the characters into different settings. And of course (hence my avatar here), defender of the Crystal Castle - after a few years' absence I got back into writing Willow/Tara last year, and still am now.

So, yeah, TL;DR, I fell in love with Tara and now I write about her helping her friends in the Great Rebellion free Etheria from the evil forces of Hordak.

[The Romulan Republic]

Without having any extraordinary attachment to Tara myself, I can honestly say that "Seeing Red" is quite possibly the darkest and most painful episode of the series (although "The Body" is up their too). I'm not saying that its bad overall (though not nearly as well-done as "The Body", and I have very mixed feelings about how Spike's attempted rape of Buffy was presented), but that episode is as dark as this series gets.

Although I very much like how season six wrapped up, and think that that would have made a fine end to the series. Also features arguably the most awesome moment for Giles of the entire franchise.

Angel goes darker on occasion, I think, but its not as well-done. Indeed, a big part of why I prefer Buffy is that while Buffy was often dark, and tragic, and horrifying, it also had a lot of humour and joy and shear fun, which I often felt Angel lacked. And the darkness and cynicism of Angel often felt gratuitous and forced, to me (which is why Fred's death had almost no emotional effect on me, I think- they were trying too hard to make it a horrible tearjerker).

Although Darla's death at Drusilla's hands is one of the most effective horror scenes I've ever seen on television.

Edit: A couple more notes:

Regarding the seeming meandering of season four, not knowing what to do next, I think that's kind of the point. Its about the characters having graduated from the familiar trappings of high school, and having to try to shape new lives for themselves. I don't think its a failing of the series, or at least not entirely, but a deliberate theme.

And regarding fanfiction...

I tend to write crossover fiction, myself, and while I've never written it, I can't help but think that Darla's death on "Angel", and specifically Lindsey's role in it, basically make Lindsey the perfect crossover foil/antagonist to... Harry Potter.

Harry Potter's character is defined perhaps most of all by two traits: A very self-sacrificing love, and, ultimately, acceptance of death. This is perhaps shown most clearly in his mother's sacrifice to protect him as a baby, which his own actions in the Forbidden Forest in Deathly Hallows echo, and in his willingness to give up the power of the Resurrection Stone.

Lindsey, in contrast, tries to "save" the woman he is in love with (or more accurately, obsessed with- I refuse to consider that love) by having her turned into a vampire- having her metaphorically raped and then killed so that a demon can prance around in her body. He destroys her, partly out of refusal to accept her death, and partly to spite Angel.

I was toying with the idea for a "Buffy" crossover with Harry Potter a while back, and at some point, thinking about that scene, realized that Lindsey would pretty much have to be Harry's opposite number, because his actions their are almost a mirror to what Harry would do, and believe.

Plus, wizard cop (Auror) vs. demonic defence lawyer. It just kind of fits, doesn't it?

[FaxModem1]

I never really got attached to Tara. I liked her, but wasn't joined at the hip like a lot of people were. But I liked her a lot better than Anya. I never really connected with Anya until season 7, as I found her a morally bankrupt substitute for Cordelia, the first of many characters that were unrepentant murderers that the Scooby club seemed to embrace with open arms.

I think that's what really bugged me about season 4 onwards, their ready acceptance of those who had openly killed, and just sort of sweeping it under the carpet.

It's why I was never a fan of Spike being a main character. By all rights, he should have been killed halfway into season 4.

Honestly, my favorite character on the show was Giles. I would have loved to have seen more stories about him and dealing with the Watchers Council.

[The Romulan Republic]

I never really got attached to Tara. I liked her, but wasn't joined at the hip like a lot of people were. But I liked her a lot better than Anya. I never really connected with Anya until season 7, as I found her a morally bankrupt substitute for Cordelia, the first of many characters that were unrepentant murderers that the Scooby club seemed to embrace with open arms.

I found Anya quite amusing, personally, and I don't think she was accepted much by the others at first. Just Xander.

I do think her showing more remorse in season seven added a needed dimension to her character. And then she died.

I think that's what really bugged me about season 4 onwards, their ready acceptance of those who had openly killed, and just sort of sweeping it under the carpet.

Honestly, pretty much none of them have their hands clean on that score, do they?

Giles? Responsible for an accidental death by demonic possession, and a murderer as of season five.

Willow? Murderer as of season six.

Xander... does arranging Angel's death by deceiving Buffy in season two count?

Buffy? Attempted to murder Faith to feed her to Angel to cure him. Also killed some of those knights who came after Dawn, though I wouldn't call that murder, since it was in defence in combat.

Angel... where do I even begin? Hell, he's got deaths on his head from the start even if you consider Angelus a separate person.

And generally, I didn't feel that they were all easily accepted. Buffy despised Spike for more than a season after her started working with the Scoobies. Xander and Giles never really got past their dislike for him, did they? Willow was forgiven quickly, but that's probably due to her being a long-time friend before she became a killer, and the fact that she was clearly not in her right mind at the time. Anya was treated with contempt by some of the others for a good two seasons or so.

It's why I was never a fan of Spike being a main character. By all rights, he should have been killed halfway into season 4.

That would have been more logical, but Spike is entertaining enough that I'm willing to forgive it, even if I wish they had come up with more logical explanations for it.

Honestly, my favorite character on the show was Giles. I would have loved to have seen more stories about him and dealing with the Watchers Council.

Yeah, Giles is my favourite too. Well, him or Spike, but probably Giles.

Lorne is my favourite for Angel, probably followed by Fred.

[Independent George]

It's been years since I watched either, but I recall that I felt at the time:

1. Buffy was excellent through S3, then started declining significantly as the characters & arcs started losing direction.
1a. Power creep felt like a much bigger issue in Buffy than in Angel, which contributed to drift mentioned above.
2. Angel was really rough in S1, then improved significantly towards the end of S2. I'm not sure how that lines up with #1.
3. Both were hurt by having to make 20+ episodes per season; it's just difficult to build suspense and draw out an confrontation with the big bad that long.
4. I thought the supernatural "ecosystem" in Angel was much, much better developed and consistent in Angel than in Buffy.
5. I thought the S5 Buffy finale was great - a worthy end to the series. The 2nd series finale... meh. A sloppy ending to a mess of a season.
6. I loved the final scene of the Angel finale, but the overall conclusion was rushed. I know it's because they were told of their cancellation very late, but there just was not a coherent buildup for the Circle, and having them all killed so quickly and relatively easily was kind of anticlimactic. Heck, the fact that their whole plan involved having each member solo'd implicitly reduces their threat level.
7. As so often happens, the overall quality of both series varied directly with the overall quality of the Villains. A+ for The Mayor and Jasmine; mixed grades for the the rest.