Sfdebris.net

clearspira wrote: And really, the Federation has always been technologically superior to everyone up to and sometimes including the Borg in terms of offensive capability.
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Going to war with the Federation is normally akin to going to war with Superman.

This hardly has anything to do with Visionary, so I'm breaking it out here.

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OK, let's imagine for a moment that the Dominion War story arc of Deep Space 9 went differently. Instead of posing the Dominion as an equal and opposite threat to the Federation, we map the key factions of the war to the nations of WW2. The Federation is the United States, The Dominion is the Axis, etc.

A cursory examination of production history shows how mismatched the Allies were against the Axis. The Allies produced more than 10x as many tanks, 10x as many trucks, 3x as many planes, and 6x as many large ships as the Axis powers. While the Dominion could be made more comparable in terms of material, the technobabble advantage of the Federation would probably compensate for that.

Obviously, a more powerful alliance crushing a weaker alliance isn't exactly what a great story is made of. So the main themes that would be addressed over the two season arc would be discussing whether pursuing the war to the complete capitulation of the Dominion is justified, and whether the Federation can maintain their national values despite the pressures of war. Given these opinions would likely differ between members of the military, who may be caught up in the needs of military expedience regardless of how they may otherwise feel, and civilians, this could provide Jake with something to do.

A basic summary of the reimagined arc would be as follows:
- Mining of the wormhole, similar to season finale. Reasonable parallel to the Oil Embargo and Japan.
- Season 6 begins after a timeskip. The Dominion advance has petered out, and the Federation seeks to begin their counter-attack with the recapture of DS9. Probably no gamble to strike the Ketracel White facility, but a Rocks and Shoals-like story is still possible. The need to plead with the Prophets to block Dominion reinforcements could still be necessary, especially if it is emphasized that the Federation has many ships laid down but not finished.
- Mid-Season 6 Federation begins pushing into Cardassian territory, which ends in Cardassian defeat by the Season 6 finale. In Season 7 the Federation needs to grapple with occupying a defeated enemy, something it has avoided for most of its history. Democratic tradition is weak in Cardassia; can the Federation ensure that that the former regime will not return without just occupying the territory for years? Will the Federation annex the Maquis colonies, or will they honor the previous territory.
- In Season 7, the war will move into the Gamma Quadrant. The Founders will adopt a more diplomatic posture. Are these actual overtures or attempts to sow division and buy time? This debate will be placed side-by-side against the uncovering of the extent of Dominion atrocities and delirious crowds greeting the Federation as liberators.
- Radical elements of Starfleet (i.e. as seen in Homefront and the Section 31) will start acting more publicly, taking advantage of the situation to advance a more imperialistic agenda. With the conclusion of the war at the end of the series, how will the Federation deal with this internal threat while concluding what is clearly a just war?

Things I'm not sure about:
- Romulans: In The Pale Moonlight doesn't work in the new arc. Maybe the Dominion attacks them, like Barbarossa?
- Prophets & Pah Wraiths: I think there's no longer enough time or anything for them to do in this new arc.
- Dukat: I imagine he could be killed sometime during Season 6 (especially as the Pah Wraiths may be shuffled aside), though it would be darkly humorous to have Dukat running a resistance movement while Kira hunts him down.

I honestly think the biggest handicap for the Feds was that they met the Dominion during the pansy ''flying mall'' era where only a couple of years before Riker was gloating about how war was not the make up of a Starfleet captain. The Starfleet of Star Trek Picard's era that had been broken by the Borg, Dominion and losing Mars would have handled this very differently.

There is a saying: ''The truly strong do not need to defend themselves.'' No one on Earth is likely to attack a US aircraft carrier because they know that their whole country is going to get wiped off the map. And its the same here. When the USS Odyssey went down, the Federation at this point should have sent the whole flag to the Dominion and attempt to do what the Obsideon Order and the Tel Shiar did. The Klingons probably would have joined in, we know that several parts of the Cardassians and Romulans would have too.

I think that a joint Fed/Klingon/Tel Shiar/Order taskforce taking on the Dominion before those clone factories and Founder infiltrators could get going? Completely different outcome.

I watched the review, and I think I remember the episode pretty good enough, but can I get a link to the original comment thread while I brief up on the current discourse here?

Also what is the principal conflict in season 7 here? Generally I'd imagine it'd be something of the Federation's undoing, so I feel like I'm missing something with this gamma quadrant endeavor.

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 9:37 pm I watched the review, and I think I remember the episode pretty good enough, but can I get a link to the original comment thread while I brief up on the current discourse here?

Well... This was technically spun off of DS9: Visionary, which got around to the old "Federation as Galactic Hyperpower". So then I started reimagining the Dominion War as something that clearly favored the Federation (rather than the Dominion)

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 9:37 pm Also what is the principal conflict in season 7 here? Generally I'd imagine it'd be something of the Federation's undoing, so I feel like I'm missing something with this gamma quadrant endeavor.

Basically Season 7 would involve three things:
- War in the Gamma Quadrant leading to the defeat of the Dominion
- Counterinsurgency/Nationbuilding in the defeated Cardassian Union
- The internal struggles of the Federation, who are winning the war militarily, but are unable to grapple with the political implications thereof.

The last one is basically meant to leave an open question as to whether the war is changing the Federation into something darker. "We're Starfleet, we don't conquer. We don't interfere." must face "Why are we still in Cardassia? Why can't we leave them alone?". "We're Starfleet, we love peace." must face "Why won't you negotiate with The Dominion?". The idea is to challenge Federation ideals, while the Federation is in a position of strength. The invasion of the Gamma Quadrant is to place Federation anti-militarism against the fact that even isolationist, The Dominion cannot be allowed to continue to exist. The other side of this is to make sure that even if there are just wars, to ensure they don't fall over to the other extreme of imperialist expansion.

Sounds like you could take from Palestine conflict for influence the more projected allegory of post intrusion dynamics. Sort of like how Cardassia is kind of like the Nazis if they had more of a presence in the modern world.

Honestly I would just like more use of the shapeshifters. They did a good job establishing the paranoia with internal conflict but a bit more examples of the enemy actually taking advantage of their ability to emulate any person or object or even some substances would have given it more substance and weight.

I thought they were used sufficiently for a political drama. They're very reclusive, and it worked really nicely for their woman behind the curtain shpeal.

I'm still not clear on what the stakes are for this season. Russia fell to overt oligarchy society following the Cold War, to which tensions didn't start rising until Crimea as far as I remember, so I see a strong parallel there, and you could even weave a social media hacking dilemma unto the federation, as per TGLS's main second act if I'm getting him correctly.

Yeah World War 2 wouldn't be a good comparison using the US as the Federation. The US at that time was a industrial powerhouse. The US had 70% of the world's oil producing capacity, had roughly 50% of the world's total industrial capacity. Had a much a larger population than the Axis countries. The US for the most part made either the best or among the best, ships, guns or planes.

Perhaps a better comparison would be WW1. With Britain the Federation, France the Klingons or Romulans. Or Russia either one too. Germany being the Dominion, Italy being Cardassia (though Italy changed sides early in the war in 1915) and Austria Hungary being the Breen.

France and Russia as the Klingons and Romulans wouldn't work. The Entente between them was very chummy and Britain in Splendid Isolation, distant and willfully aloof but suspicious, was more like the Romulans.

A-H As the Breen doesn't work at all as the Breen are a late-comer. Italy as the Breen might work, but then the Breen couldn't be this mysteriously effective threat but an incompetently ambitious opportunist that caused the Entente as much problems as they provided solutions to the war.

A-H is Cardassia. It's struggling to maintain the old order and falling into irrelevance that then gets thrown into a crisis hoping to expand and regain its position as a Great Power through the annexation of a lesser nation only to find that the mutually hostility between the two has created a World War. Such a strict allegory would then require Bajor to be less than nice with them eagerly trying to provoke the Cardassians with Bajoran terrorists continue to commit terrorist attacks in Cardassian territory after the Occupation in the hopes of gaining more territory.

This all the more so given the fact that by the end the A-H army was increasingly run by the Germany Empire. A-H generals had failed so badly that men like Mackensen had to be brought in to properly lead operations. Much the same was the case for the Ottomans, only that had happened far earlier, and in places, right from the start of their entry into the war.

Really, Trek's planet of hats keeps biting it in the ass, or rather more specifically it's "One species, one nation" rule. By that, I mean you could have it where the Occupation of Bajor ended, but Cardassia fell back to holding onto smaller, easier to control Bajoran colonies and still had Bajorans under their rule with some very much ambivalent over wanting to rejoin Bajor proper.

Serbia very much wanted to liberate the Balkans and unite all Yugoslavs, but they expected all Yugoslavs to then bend the knee to them with the Croats and Slovenes wanting to be free, not trade A-H rule for Serbian rule. As it stood, they were thrown into the arms of Serbia creating Yugoslavia as the they were seen as the lesser of the evils around them fearing that Italy or others would gobble them up.

Beastro wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 11:02 pm France and Russia as the Klingons and Romulans wouldn't work. The Entente between them was very chummy and Britain in Splendid Isolation, distant and willfully aloof but suspicious, was more like the Romulans.

A-H As the Breen doesn't work at all as the Breen are a late-comer. Italy as the Breen might work, but then the Breen couldn't be this mysteriously effective threat but an incompetently ambitious opportunist that caused the Entente as much problems as they provided solutions to the war.

A-H is Cardassia. It's struggling to maintain the old order and falling into irrelevance that then gets thrown into a crisis hoping to expand and regain its position as a Great Power through the annexation of a lesser nation only to find that the mutually hostility between the two has created a World War. Such a strict allegory would then require Bajor to be less than nice with them eagerly trying to provoke the Cardassians with Bajoran terrorists continue to commit terrorist attacks in Cardassian territory after the Occupation in the hopes of gaining more territory.

This all the more so given the fact that by the end the A-H army was increasingly run by the Germany Empire. A-H generals had failed so badly that men like Mackensen had to be brought in to properly lead operations. Much the same was the case for the Ottomans, only that had happened far earlier, and in places, right from the start of their entry into the war.

Really, Trek's planet of hats keeps biting it in the ass, or rather more specifically it's "One species, one nation" rule. By that, I mean you could have it where the Occupation of Bajor ended, but Cardassia fell back to holding onto smaller, easier to control Bajoran colonies and still had Bajorans under their rule with some very much ambivalent over wanting to rejoin Bajor proper.

Serbia very much wanted to liberate the Balkans and unite all Yugoslavs, but they expected all Yugoslavs to then bend the knee to them with the Croats and Slovenes wanting to be free, not trade A-H rule for Serbian rule. As it stood, they were thrown into the arms of Serbia creating Yugoslavia as the they were seen as the lesser of the evils around them fearing that Italy or others would gobble them up.

I really didn't give much thought to the WW1 comparisons. I just felt WW1 was better than WW2 because the nation's were more equally matched.

The Soviets were a huge country that was slowly learning its mistakes. At best Germany would havd stalemated them if Britain and the US were not involved. But bring in those two, Germany had no chance.

WW1 United States were much different then they were 20 years later. Their biggest contribution was the very real threat of having fresh millions of Americans coming in with a huge supply train. The US had a powerful navy though top heavy with battleships and smaller than Germany.