Sfdebris.net

youtu.be/UHHkAuYuXVQ

Okay, in order to explain why I think this is a bad idea I need to point to a scene that does something similar only without the stupidity. In She-Ra and the Princesses of Power's fifth season Catra tries to stay on Horde Prime's good side but fails and what's more Prime figures out that Catra is in love with Adora even when Catra is lying to herself about how she feels. The scene plays out as fallows.

Catra: [smugly] Neat trick, with all the footage of her friends in danger. These princesses are so predictable with their feelings.

Prime : As were you.

Catra: [nervously, quietly] ...What?

Prime: Elevated heart rate, dilated pupils... Adora means something to you.

Catra: No. She doesn't. She chose her side, I chose mine... She means nothing to me.

Prime: You Etherians are all alike. Such strong connections to one another. It's what makes you weak.

Catra: [quietly] ...What are you going to do with me?

Prime: [slightly more sinisterly] Now that I know about She-Ra and the weapon, what purpose do I have for you? Your little ploy of parsing out information like a bartering chip was never going to last long out here... I see all. I know all. But fear not. I have great plans for you. Every part of the machine is of value. Even you...little sister.

Both this scene and the one with Palpatine revealing that he has been influencing Kylo are both intended setup both characters redemption arcs as they learn something from an evil overlord that gets both started on their path to redemption... There's just one little problem with Kylo's scene... It's stupid.

Up until this point everything Kylo has done has been established to because he wanted to be more like Vader and to hurt his family. He killed his father, put Finn in a coma and gaslighted, harassed and attempted to kill Rey for not joining him. And before that he killed every fellow Padawan in Luke's school who wouldn't join him because they happened to be in killing range. And at no point does he ever show any regret for his action, any sign that he wants to turn his life around. He just keeps falling back onto his anger and acting like a child throwing a temper tantrum whenever he doesn't get his way.

And then in comes Palpatine who reveals in one line of dialogue that Kylo WASN'T responsible for anything he did. The Devil MADE him do those evil things by whispering being every villain in the films... Because he can do that now. Didn't need to do that with Anakin he just manipulated him by preying on his ego and fears until he had him wrapped around his finger.

By revealing Palpatine was behind Kylo's actions it removes Kylo's agency. I've always felt that Kylo didn't really have an arc and this backs up that idea by removing any and all motivation Kylo MIGHT have had and boiling it down to "The Voices in his head made him evil."

Catra has done terrible things and is convinced that no one cares about her because of all the terrible things she's done. But she's not beyond saving as we've seen her show compassion to others, even those who abused her and have seen her heart's true desire which was to just be with Adora, to have the friendship of her fellow cadets and to have the love and support of her surrogate mother.

But she buried those feelings down her warped view of the world courtesy (activating Sarcasm Mode) Shadow Weaver's Wonderfull and Flawless Parenting skills convinced her that what she wanted wasn't love and friendship but power and respect. And everything she did was to get that power and respect until it was all taken away from her and she was forced to confront the fact that she had no one but herself to blame.

She then found herself the center of attention of the leader of the most powerful Empire in the known galaxy and, likely not truly thinking and instead just running on instinct, tried to manipulate her way to the top like she did before only to learn that was no longer an option and she truly had no way out of what was proving to be a death sentence.

And then, she heard the one thing she likely didn't want to hear, she was still in love with Adora and the one to tell her this was the last person she needed to hear it from, Horde Prime the man she was trying to manipulate.

What makes Catra's bit work is that this helps to show she still loves Adora and she has no way of climbing the ranks of the Horde anymore, her only option is to remain Prime's servant and hope she never becomes useless to him so she knows she can't regain the power she's lost. And with her believing she has no one to turn to and know that is her fault Catra comes to realize that all she has is her love for Adora and so makes a choice.


youtu.be/3eZSUWxGpro

Catra had no intention of surviving but this one good act showed Adora that there was still good in Catra and because of that Adora couldn't abandon the girl she loved and so risked everything to go and save her because Catra had proven that the girl Adora always loved was willing to change herself for the better.

Kylo on the other hand KEPT gaslighting and harassing Rey and tricked her into thinking she killed one of her friends and tried to just straight up kill her when she refused to join him. Then she stabbed him, then healed him and now Kylo is good now and wants to help Rey... That's literally what happens. There is no arc Kylo is evil throughout the Trilogy shows ZERO signs of wanting to redeem himself and has made it clear he only sees Rey as a means of self gratification and because NOT because he ever cared about her.

And what's worse, the whole bit with Palpatine being the one to manipulate Kylo his whole life is NEVER brought up again. Kylo is told that Palpatine has been controlling him all his life and the story doesn't DO ANYTHING WITH IT!!!

Catra being told that she's lying to herself and that she still loves Adora and that she has no means to moving forward and her belief no one cares for her sets up her Heel-Face Turn PERFECTLY. She has no one but herself to blame for her mistakes and her choice to save Glimmer and later to truly work to redeem herself is a choice SHE makes because that's the journey she's been on throughout the series.

One of the themes of She-Ra is the idea of love Redeems but with a twist. Unlike other examples it's not someone showing someone who was once evil that they are loved but someone's love for other people making them realize what a piece of $#!t they are and working to become a better person. Kylo is evil until the plot needs him to be good and then he does nothing of importance and then he dies.

Catra is saved and brought back to Etheria and is confronted and reminded of all the terrible things she's done. Even if the Rebellion forgives her for her mistakes Catra will still have to live with what she did and still have to work to become a better person. Redemption is a never ending battle, even if you atone for your sins there is always one person to remind you how terrible you were and that you can become that person again. Yourself.

Catra living and needing to make up for her mistakes and not arguing with the Princesses about her mistakes was the best choice for her character because just killing her off would have made her character feel like a waste of time. She's not Vader who's whole arc was coming to save his family (now rendered pointless by the Disney Sequel Trilogy thanks for that Disney ). But Kylo is just another Vader Clone, copying his arc from the Original Trilogy without understanding what made that arc work. And this moment of him being told that he never had a choice to be anything other then what he is because of a retcon just highlights why so many fans see him as a weak successor to his grandfather.

Palpatine influencing Kylo Ren led to the death of Luke Skywalker.

That alone makes it worth it from his perspective even if he had to kill a trillion of his own soldiers to do it.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:07 am Palpatine influencing Kylo Ren led to the death of Luke Skywalker.

That alone makes it worth it from his perspective even if he had to kill a trillion of his own soldiers to do it.

But it still removes Kylo's agency in the story, what little he had, and makes it all about Palpatine. Honestly bringing Palpatine back and making him the reason for Ben becoming Kylo and making him Rey his granddaughter hinders the series as a whole as everything in the last Trilogy was all for nothing. Palpatine didn't die, Anakin sacrificed his life for nothing since Palpatine still killed Anakin's family and regained his Empire after only 30 years nothing mattered.

Again, She-Ra handled this so much better because Catra retained her agency and her redemption felt more natural and nuanced because of it. And bringing in Horde Prime didn't hurt the story because his arrival was foreshadowed since season 2 and he helps to further Catra and Adora's character arcs instead of derailing them.

I may not agree with fans of The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi on how well the Trilogy was handling Rey and Kylo's arc but even I agree that including Palpatine hurt their characters and any chance they had at standing on their own. Mind you I feel that TLJ already botched their characters but still there was a LOT of potential that was wasted and bringing in Palpatine did more harm then good.

You are putting more thought into the Star Wars sequels, than the makers did. It's a pointless exercise in frustration. Do like I do. Ignore their existence and move on, hopefully to more joyful places.

Madner Kami wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:26 pm You are putting more thought into the Star Wars sequels, than the makers did. It's a pointless exercise in frustration. Do like I do. Ignore their existence and move on, hopefully to more joyful places.

Except that's one of the problems with the Trilogy too, ignoring the past instead of learning from it and, as a result, retreading it. We must look at where this Trilogy went wrong in order to avoid the mistakes it made in the future. She-Ra had similar concepts and yet is widely praised by both critics and viewers while TDST is becoming less and less popular as time goes on.

One of the major themes of She-Ra is learning from your mistakes, overcoming trauma in order to move with your life while TDST seems to take Kylo's words to heart "Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. It's the only way you can become what you were meant to be." And this was said by a Darth Vader wannabe who's "arc" is just a retread of Vader's only with less depth and complexity.

I feel that going over TDST's flaws is important because in ignoring it we risk repeating it or, in a way, validating it. Say what you will about the Prequels but Lucas did learn from his mistakes as time went on until we got The Clone Wars which was a huge success and showed what Lucas was trying to say with the Prequels which, in a way, vindicated them.

TDST dwells on the past, trying to recapture the glory of the Original Trilogy without understanding what made it a classic while also killing off the Original Trio and, IMO, often in ways that don't befit the characters as they are all killed by a whiny Vader knock off instead in a way that shows us why they are legends.

Madner Kami wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:26 pm You are putting more thought into the Star Wars sequels, than the makers did. It's a pointless exercise in frustration. Do like I do. Ignore their existence and move on, hopefully to more joyful places.

Abrams even admitted recently that this is true.

Winter wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:47 pmI feel that going over TDST's flaws is important because in ignoring it we risk repeating it or, in a way, validating it. Say what you will about the Prequels but Lucas did learn from his mistakes as time went on until we got The Clone Wars which was a huge success and showed what Lucas was trying to say with the Prequels which, in a way, vindicated them.

By talking about it, you keep it relevant. If it's relevant, there'll be more of it. All the mistakes have been pointed out already in great lengths over and over and over again. Repeating how garbage it was, doesn't make it un-garbage. It clearly doesn't send a message to those making it either, because they, unlike Lukas, didn't have an intimate relationship with the franchise. What they see is: "People talk about it. Thus, people want more of it!" They don't read, understand or think about the criticism. Engagement drives things these days and nothing else. Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, every newspaper everywhere. And I am fucking sick and tired of the world this has created, because it's neither productive nor constructive, it's just constantly treading the wheel, repeating the same over and over again.

(Sorry if this comes across as if I want to shut you down. There's a lot of pent up frustration that has nowhere to go on my end and I want to prevent you from spinning in the mentioned wheel until you burn out.)

Winter wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:34 am

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:07 am Palpatine influencing Kylo Ren led to the death of Luke Skywalker.

That alone makes it worth it from his perspective even if he had to kill a trillion of his own soldiers to do it.

But it still removes Kylo's agency in the story, what little he had, and makes it all about Palpatine. Honestly bringing Palpatine back and making him the reason for Ben becoming Kylo and making him Rey his granddaughter hinders the series as a whole as everything in the last Trilogy was all for nothing. Palpatine didn't die, Anakin sacrificed his life for nothing since Palpatine still killed Anakin's family and regained his Empire after only 30 years nothing mattered.

Again, She-Ra handled this so much better because Catra retained her agency and her redemption felt more natural and nuanced because of it. And bringing in Horde Prime didn't hurt the story because his arrival was foreshadowed since season 2 and he helps to further Catra and Adora's character arcs instead of derailing them.

I may not agree with fans of The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi on how well the Trilogy was handling Rey and Kylo's arc but even I agree that including Palpatine hurt their characters and any chance they had at standing on their own. Mind you I feel that TLJ already botched their characters but still there was a LOT of potential that was wasted and bringing in Palpatine did more harm then good.

This makes me think of Davros from Doctor Who. The Daleks were introduced in the first year of the series and quickly became the most popular enemy of the Doctor, hence why they would keep coming back so often. The idea of exploring their origins and introducing their creator as a new enemy was not a bad idea and Davros, as a character, was handled very well. The problem, is that any time you use Davros as the main villain you turn your fan favorite into a just another minion taking orders. They attempted to get around this problem by turning the Daleks and Davros against each other, but with mixed success.

Avengers (2012) established that Loki was acting on someone else orders but there is a reason Thanos doesn't appear until the end credits because it would have reduced Loki to just another minion taking orders.

This is kind of an issue with the Original Trilogy because Vader is set up as the main antagonist in the first 2 films, rather effectively I would add, only to be pushed aside at the last minute to make way for this new guy. The Sequel Trilogy does the same thing, but less gracefully. It feels like Kylo Ren is being shown the door because fans didn't like him so they had to make room for a classic villain to step into the role in hopes of bringing back the fans. Jabba The Hutt doesn't have this problem because while he is a minor villain in the grand scheme of things, no one is stepping aside to make room for him and Fett is basically occupying the same role he had in the previous film, so again no one is being pushed aside.

I was afraid this would be an issue with She-Ra and The Princesses of Power when Horde Prime showed up, but they manage to side step the issue by having Hordak moving out of the villain role. His redemption arch is well under way by the time Horde Prime arrives, who helps him take the final step by showing that he's not really committed to Prime's empire anymore. So by the time the final season starts, Hordak isn't really a villain anymore leaving that role empty for Horde Prime.

Avatar: The Last Airbender also gets around the issue with Azula and Ozai by having them play the same role but in different ways so neither feels intrusive. Ozai is a plot device forcing Aang to choose between his own beliefs and his duty as the Avatar; Azula is a foil for Zuko showing him the person he could have been.

Code Geass also handles the issue very well by setting up both the Emperor and The Prince well in advance so Schneizel taking over the main villain role feels very natural.

I honestly think Catra's arc was terrible because the story SHOULD have ended with her accepting the Horde and becoming its leader. Catra was continually offered chances at redemption and the fact she chose NOT to be redeemed and be evil made her story better. Mind you, I feel the greatest moment of Avatar: The Last Airbender is when Zuko chooses his father and sister over Aang. It was a bold storytelling choice and the better for it.

Part of why I felt Kylo Ren's arc suffered is because he IS a brat and chose to be evil for no reason.

Some people just choose to be scum and that should have been the end of his arc.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:13 am I honestly think Catra's arc was terrible because the story SHOULD have ended with her accepting the Horde and becoming its leader. Catra was continually offered chances at redemption and the fact she chose NOT to be redeemed and be evil made her story better. Mind you, I feel the greatest moment of Avatar: The Last Airbender is when Zuko chooses his father and sister over Aang. It was a bold storytelling choice and the better for it.

Part of why I felt Kylo Ren's arc suffered is because he IS a brat and chose to be evil for no reason.

Some people just choose to be scum and that should have been the end of his arc.

In all the time I've known you I don't think you've mentioned a single redemption arc you like. Why is that?