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Let me ask you something, how many times has someone tried to make Superman all angsty and how many times have the Jedi been called as bad as the Sith? Second question, of the times this has been done how many of them do you remember? Third question, how many times has someone tried to replace Sups and the Jedi with someone "Better" only for that that new and better idea to be thrown out because it was either A) Just Sups and the Jedi again with a different name or B) Just wasn't as interesting as Sups and the Jedi.

The argument that because the Jedi and Superman are good or would be the villains in another other series is an argument that comes up every now and then, and while there is some merit to the idea it is also not completely valid either.

One point that was brought up with the Evil Superman Expy Homelander from The Boys was that anyone who was as powerful as Superman and had gained all the fame he has would be a sociopath... One little problem with this argument and that is the show itself alters a key point with Homelander and that is how he was raised. From what I understand he was taken by the military and deprived of love and affection which is why he NEEDS the admiration of the people, to the point that he leaves when the Wonder Woman Expy threaten to post a video of him being the horrible person that he is online to get him to back off.

The show itself completely invalidates the idea that anyone with Superman powers and fame would be evil by insuring that he would become evil due to how he was raised.

Likewise a point that is often overlooked or flat out ignored in regards to the Jedi when it comes to trying to make them look as bad as the Sith is that they are always looking to help people and the ones that are crooked and fall to the Dark Side to enforce their will are the exceptions NOT the norm. This may be a weird example to point to but look at Anakin in the Prequel Trilogy and the Clone Wars. Yes, he becomes a villain but he WAS a hero, who fought side by side with his clones, who did what he could to save both innocent lives and the ones he loves and in the end it is that same love that pulls him back towards the light side.

I said in another post that A New Hope and Return of the Jedi were titles that had more then one meaning, the first meaning being that Luke was A New Hope for the Return of the Jedi but it also meant A New Hope for the Return of the Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker.

The reason that the idea of the series casting aside the Jedi and Sith for something new is NEVER going to stick is for the same reasons a Dark and Edgy Superman is NEVER going to stick. They are something we aspire to be.

Arguably one of the most resent Superman Expy Characters that is becoming rather popular right now is Danielle "Danny" Tozer from the Nemesis Series. While what makes Danny stand out is that her being a transgender girl she also stands out as one of the few Superman Expys who is a GOOD person. Sure, she likes the fame of being a Superhero (who wouldn't?) but one thing that makes her so interesting is that she is worthy of standing side by side along the man of steel because she wants to help people and feels ashamed of herself whenever she fails to measure up to a standard that is seems impossible to meet. That she should always be heroic, to never be cruel or cowardly and to never show that she is, well, human.

But that is not what makes Superman who he is, what makes Superman a hero is, well, I'll let the Doctor handle this one.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnouj9Yz-Gs[/youtube]

To be Superman and to be a Jedi is not about being this perfect person or order of saints, it is simply to do the best that can be done, to help others and to show courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves.

One of the reasons I see the Third Lesson from The Last Jedi as the worst deleted scene in the franchises history is because it shows just how little Rian Johnson understands the Jedi. In that scene Luke argues that a Jedi wouldn't get involved in a conflict and wouldn't bother to save people because it wouldn't make any difference. Except a Jedi WOULD get involved in a conflict to help protect innocent people. One of the reasons the Order fell was because Palpatine created a war that would Force the Jedi to get involved because so many lives were at risk that they had no choice but to fight a war even though they did everything in their power to stop it.

It's not about making a difference, it's about doing what you can to save people and hoping that the next day is better.

It doesn't often work and the there were other factors that led to the Orders downfall but the Jedi never wanted to go to war, never wanted power but found themselves in a game they never intended or wanted to play.

Before I close this out let me ask you one last question, remember Blue and Red Superman? Who DC played up as the new and better version of Superman that was here to stay only to be discarded after less then a year because it just wasn't as popular. Or when DC tried to make Sups dark edgy as they could in the New 52 and only brought back the classic Superman for what was intended to be a one and done deal only for that series to be a huge hit and ended up bringing back the classic Superman AND altering the New 52 Superman to be more like his Classic counterpart?

Why is it that both versions never worked?

Winter wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:44 amIt doesn't often work and the there were other factors that led to the Orders downfall but the Jedi never wanted to go to war, never wanted power but found themselves in a game they never intended or wanted to play.

The Jedi could have, at any point, decided to not be the generals of the Republic. They didn't. They deliberately choose to step into a situation that they knew was a trap, even though they didn't know the details of said trap, other than it being clearly a manufactured situation.

I don't think Superman and the Jedi are on the same page. But let me answer your last question first.

Superman is an Icon. From his look to his powers, and most importantly his outlook. He is the cheerful idealist people look to when things are bleak. As strong as he is, there are stronger. And he gets beat down, he picks his chin up to do what is right. Just like the clip you linked to. You want dark? Read Batman.

As to the jedi being out there to help because it is right? Let's ignore the books and video games. Just the movies. The gungans were second class citizens on Naboo. I got the impression they were the native people there and that the humans basically took over. They did not get along with each other and the gungans did not have a voice in the senate. The jedi did nothing. If Qui Gon had not been guilted because he forced Jar Jar to return while banished. And Jar Jar was to be punished for this, Jar Jar would have been left behind and Amidala would never have learned of the gungan army. It was her taking a passing comment and using it. And her that brought the gungans at least closer to parity. Not the jedi. If the jedi were about the good of the people. Where was the jedi on Tatooine? And out of their jurisdiction really sounds like a hollow excuse.
Elsewhere someone commented that the jedi mind trick was not mind control, just suggestions. But we see Obi Wan use this in a bar and turned a street pusher into a puppet. "You don't want to sell me death sticks." "You want to go home and rethink your life." The guy stopped his sales pitch then got up and left repeating his orders. That is not pure good. That is horrifying. And it came from one of the most stand up jedi we admire. You want an ideal Jedi? Luke Skywalker in Empire and Return. Empire he could die, but he had to help his friends. The old jedi? Let them die. Return, he had to face Vader his way. He had to try and save him, redeem him. To do less would not be the Hero.

Nealithi wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:12 amSuperman is an Icon. From his look to his powers, and most importantly his outlook. He is the cheerful idealist people look to when things are bleak. As strong as he is, there are stronger. And he gets beat down, he picks his chin up to do what is right. Just like the clip you linked to. You want dark? Read Batman.

Icons are needed to aspire to emulate, but they are not engagingly on a human level. That is precisely why they are the way they are, to not be on a flawed human level. The problem is that remoteness creates alienation and needs to be balanced.

Superman and Batman show the two major archetypes of superheroes with Superman being an ideal and Batman being the gritty, wounded and human type which then opened the door to the anti-hero in comics.

To make Superman dark and gritty won't make him better anymore than throwing a white shirt in mud improves it by separating from it the very thing people find the most intriguing about that shade (even if wearing white is a pain in the ass).

As to the jedi being out there to help because it is right? Let's ignore the books and video games. Just the movies. The gungans were second class citizens on Naboo. I got the impression they were the native people there and that the humans basically took over. They did not get along with each other and the gungans did not have a voice in the senate. The jedi did nothing. If Qui Gon had not been guilted because he forced Jar Jar to return while banished. And Jar Jar was to be punished for this, Jar Jar would have been left behind and Amidala would never have learned of the gungan army. It was her taking a passing comment and using it. And her that brought the gungans at least closer to parity. Not the jedi. If the jedi were about the good of the people. Where was the jedi on Tatooine? And out of their jurisdiction really sounds like a hollow excuse.
Elsewhere someone commented that the jedi mind trick was not mind control, just suggestions. But we see Obi Wan use this in a bar and turned a street pusher into a puppet. "You don't want to sell me death sticks." "You want to go home and rethink your life." The guy stopped his sales pitch then got up and left repeating his orders. That is not pure good. That is horrifying. And it came from one of the most stand up jedi we admire. You want an ideal Jedi? Luke Skywalker in Empire and Return. Empire he could die, but he had to help his friends. The old jedi? Let them die. Return, he had to face Vader his way. He had to try and save him, redeem him. To do less would not be the Hero

That was intended though.

Lucas was doing a similar variation of the Prime Directive where that was Republic business and the Jedi had other priorities beyond interfering and moralizing lest they feel the need to eventually run the Republic. Nonetheless, their distance is part of the thematic reason why they fell in the Prequels and why Qui Gon's death is a tragedy: He wanted to restore a more engaged, humane Jedi to the galaxy and died before he could. As a result, the Jedi fell because they were typical stuffy, remote priests who didn't see disaster looming under their nose.

Luke as a single character is one thing, you're getting into organization territory with Jedi as a group. Groups are always compromised, and one could see the example of Qui Gon you cite as a sign of even him being effected by the corruption of them as a group. The sad thing is, so little of this was really explored in the Prequels because Lucas wanted to focus more on the politics of the early 2000s.

Madner Kami wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:57 am

Winter wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:44 amIt doesn't often work and the there were other factors that led to the Orders downfall but the Jedi never wanted to go to war, never wanted power but found themselves in a game they never intended or wanted to play.

The Jedi could have, at any point, decided to not be the generals of the Republic. They didn't. They deliberately choose to step into a situation that they knew was a trap, even though they didn't know the details of said trap, other than it being clearly a manufactured situation.

Well, what else where they going to do? Stay home and hope that the Sith would leave them be and let hundred of innocent people die in the meantime? Yeah it was a trap but they didn't have many real options as no matter how you look at it the Jedi were already in a trap and it could be argued that since the Jedi got involved things turned out a lot better.

With the Jedi some of the Clone Troopers were freed from Palpatine's control and because of their involvement in the war some of them were able to survive for a lot longer then if they refused to get involved.

No matter how the Clone Wars ended the Old Jedi Order's story would have ended the same way, surrounded by an army with everyone seeing them as the villains.

Nealithi wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:12 am I don't think Superman and the Jedi are on the same page. But let me answer your last question first.

Superman is an Icon. From his look to his powers, and most importantly his outlook. He is the cheerful idealist people look to when things are bleak. As strong as he is, there are stronger. And he gets beat down, he picks his chin up to do what is right. Just like the clip you linked to. You want dark? Read Batman.

As to the jedi being out there to help because it is right? Let's ignore the books and video games. Just the movies. The gungans were second class citizens on Naboo. I got the impression they were the native people there and that the humans basically took over. They did not get along with each other and the gungans did not have a voice in the senate. The jedi did nothing. If Qui Gon had not been guilted because he forced Jar Jar to return while banished. And Jar Jar was to be punished for this, Jar Jar would have been left behind and Amidala would never have learned of the gungan army. It was her taking a passing comment and using it. And her that brought the gungans at least closer to parity. Not the jedi. If the jedi were about the good of the people. Where was the jedi on Tatooine? And out of their jurisdiction really sounds like a hollow excuse.
Elsewhere someone commented that the jedi mind trick was not mind control, just suggestions. But we see Obi Wan use this in a bar and turned a street pusher into a puppet. "You don't want to sell me death sticks." "You want to go home and rethink your life." The guy stopped his sales pitch then got up and left repeating his orders. That is not pure good. That is horrifying. And it came from one of the most stand up jedi we admire. You want an ideal Jedi? Luke Skywalker in Empire and Return. Empire he could die, but he had to help his friends. The old jedi? Let them die. Return, he had to face Vader his way. He had to try and save him, redeem him. To do less would not be the Hero.

In regards to the Gungans the text of the film makes it clear that the Gungans see the Naboo in a negative light because they see them as High and Mighty but as Padme says "While we do not always agree our two great societies have always lived in peace." There's nothing to suggest that the Gungans were second class they just lived separately from the Nabooians.

As for the Death Stick Dealer, he's literally a drug dealer, I don't have that much sympathy and least Obi-Wan just told him to rethink his life. But that's another can or worms that has no right answer.

However, I do want to clarify that I NEVER said the Jedi were pure good and I think this underlines the real reason so many people have issues with the Jedi and that is they were a flawed ordered because, they were run by people and people are imperfect. Even Luke (going by TOT) wasn't the "Ideal Jedi" lest we forget that he did give into his anger during his fight with Vader and nearly killed him who was the person he was trying to save.

And going by the Original Extended Universe Luke made mistakes there too, some that were even worse then Obi-Wan's "Rethink Your Life" bit which included him straight up murdering someone in a fit of anger (for anyone who thought that TDST screwed Luke over, no no no, the series was doing that already ).

The Jedi are not perfect but the point is there is no "Perfect" Solution here. There's not going to be a replacement that is the Jedi but "Better" because sooner or later that same order is going to show its flaws and we'll be right back where we started. Time after time people have tried to replace replace Superman with another "Superior" Version and time after time it's failed.

As for the Jedi not being on Tatooine and dealing with the corruption there, well, why doesn't Superman go to another country to overthrow a Dictator, why doesn't Batman kill his villains, why does Wonder Woman ever bother trying to make peace with her enemies even when she IS willing to kill? Because that's not their place. Tatooine is not within the Republic Territory there for while the Jedi may go there they have no real authority and thus cannot deal with the Corruption.

The Jedi going to Tatooine and declaring they will now purge the planet its corruption would be a BAD THING! Note that the Jedi, in the Prequels, do (for the most part) adhere to the law and only go against it when they feel they have no other choice (like when they went to arrest Palpatine) and even then they didn't like doing so.

Again, I never claimed the Jedi were pure good, it's far from that but a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense NEVER for attack.

In the deleted scene Luke isn't talking about the Jedi not interfering lol it's about the council not getting involved in matters that they won't stick around for. If you're saying in the other example that they all died fighting to protect then that's an example of them sticking around.

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:38 am In the deleted scene Luke isn't talking about the Jedi not interfering lol it's about the council not getting involved in matters that they won't stick around for. If you're saying in the other example that they all died fighting to protect then that's an example of them sticking around.

The framing of the scene is Luke trying to convince Rey that one of the faults of the Jedi is how they wouldn't get involved and dhow that is one of the reasons they have to end the Order. He's first words are "You know what a True Jedi would do right now? Nothing."

In the Legend of Korra's Second Season one of the arugments that Unalaq makes as to why Korra should just sit by and let him be a cruel dictator is because the Avatar needs to remain natural in conflicts and not get involved. And everyone buys this for a while and only turn on him when it's learned that the guy who is the obvious villain is the villain of the season so the show is framing it as Unalaq using some sort of fact to keep Korra under his control... Except! The whole point of the Avatar and the Jedi IS to get involved to protect those who cannot protect themselves and (as shown in the Clone Wars) to help those they are defending to learn how to defend themselves when the Jedi leave.

This is manufactured conflict that goes against what has been established In Canon for the sake of drama where non need exist. AND it again shows that this is NOT Luke Skywalker. Luke wouldn't do this, Luke wouldn't say this and it should be noted that the reason Johnson cut this scene was due to runtime (says the man who wasted a solid 2 minutes on dumb jokes like the Porgs guilt tripping Chewie for eating one of their own, Poe's crank call to Hux and the cloths iron space ship fake out (yeah those were SOOO important to the film )) NOT because he realized it didn't fit with Luke's character.

Can they stick around to protect those who are in danger forever? No. Can they help those who are in danger now? Yes.

For the record I'm not saying you're wrong this is just my personal issue with the film, it makes a big deal about the faults of the Jedi and how it either needs to change or be replaced but doesn't actually answer what it should be replaced with or how it should change.

I mentioned in a comment a while back that one of my issues with Mass Effect Andromeda was that the game made a big deal about Suvi being religious and a side character you meet being trans and in the former's case demanded to you be either pro religious or basically slam the religious person with no middle option. And then after these moments that the game made a big deal out of it just moves on like it wasn't that big of a deal even though it just made a big deal about it.

In his review of Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice Linkara made a point that one his issues with the film was how the film made a big deal about the "Must there be a Superman" Montage which the film never has an answer for and could have been cut with no real consequence and how there were a ton of moments like that throughout the film.

Bad stories make big deals about anything it can only to discarded those points because it's not about making a point it's about LOOKING like you have something to say to get attention. And that's another reason I didn't like that deleted scene in TLJ it doesn't actually talk about this idea but just discarded it to Rey can yell at Luke for his BS (I don't blame her). The only reason this scene works is because it's setting up why Rey would buy into Kylo's BS because Luke lied to her and made her think he was going to let innocent people die just to troll her. AND THE MOVIE DELETED THAT BECAUSE JOHNSON WANTED THOUGHT IT WASN'T THAT IMPORTANT!!!

This movie saw a major moment in Rey's character arc as less important the Chewie being guilt tripped for eating a Porg!

I'm sorry to keep bringing this series in but, She-Ra do your thing!

Towards the end of Season 4 the heroes learn that the planet of Etheria is a super woman that can enhance their powers and give them the edge they need to take out the Horde BUT doing so will result in the weapon being active and WILL lead to the world being BOOM! BUT, only Adora and Bow have know the whole detail and while they do try and go over why using the Heart of Etheria is a bad idea the fact is the Rebellion is losing the war and they need any advantage they can get.

Both sides have a point and while we're on Adora and Bow's side we get why half the rebellion wants to use it and the other side DOES Agree to look into the use of the weapon to see if it can be used safely and if it can't be safely used they won't use it. BUT, but but but, no one is thinking clearly because how much is at stake so while that is a lovely sentiment that's all it is. People faced with big questions during high stakes situations don't think clearly and while the obvious answer is "You can't save a world by blowing it up" the counter argument is "We also can't save the world if our enemies KILL US".

TLJ doesn't have an answer for why the Jedi should end or how it should change it just makes a big deal out of it and then moves on because it's more important that you notice a question then trying to answer said question.

People still read and watch Superman almost a century later so...no?

Seems an argument right there.

CharlesPhipps wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:31 am People still read and watch Superman almost a century later so...no?

Seems an argument right there.

And yet people still argue this point. Hell there are still people saying that Star Wars will be forgotten in about 5 or 10 years from now despite the fact that it will so turn 50 in about 6 or 7 years from now and people are STILL talking about it.

Fun fact, a few months ago I was watching the 2010 adaptation of The Tempest (really underrated Adaptation of the play IMO) I read a couple of comments on how boring Shakespeare was and that they couldn't wait for people to stop talking about it... Yeah, they're in for a long wait.

But back to the subject every so often someone will come around and go on about how boring Superman or the Jedi are and how we need to make the former more interesting by making him dark and edgy while we just need to get rid of the latter and replace with them with something better.

Whenever I ask someone what they would want the Jedi to be replaced with I always get these vague answers that often sound like "Just something better" and then they go on about how awful the Jedi are and that's why they should be replaced. I respect anyone who has a different opinion then me but it annoys me how no one seems to know WHAT they want to replace the Jedi's with.

Beastro wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:59 pm

Nealithi wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:12 amSuperman is an Icon. From his look to his powers, and most importantly his outlook. He is the cheerful idealist people look to when things are bleak. As strong as he is, there are stronger. And he gets beat down, he picks his chin up to do what is right. Just like the clip you linked to. You want dark? Read Batman.

Icons are needed to aspire to emulate, but they are not engagingly on a human level. That is precisely why they are the way they are, to not be on a flawed human level. The problem is that remoteness creates alienation and needs to be balanced.

Superman and Batman show the two major archetypes of superheroes with Superman being an ideal and Batman being the gritty, wounded and human type which then opened the door to the anti-hero in comics.

To make Superman dark and gritty won't make him better anymore than throwing a white shirt in mud improves it by separating from it the very thing people find the most intriguing about that shade (even if wearing white is a pain in the ass).

As to the jedi being out there to help because it is right? Let's ignore the books and video games. Just the movies. The gungans were second class citizens on Naboo. I got the impression they were the native people there and that the humans basically took over. They did not get along with each other and the gungans did not have a voice in the senate. The jedi did nothing. If Qui Gon had not been guilted because he forced Jar Jar to return while banished. And Jar Jar was to be punished for this, Jar Jar would have been left behind and Amidala would never have learned of the gungan army. It was her taking a passing comment and using it. And her that brought the gungans at least closer to parity. Not the jedi. If the jedi were about the good of the people. Where was the jedi on Tatooine? And out of their jurisdiction really sounds like a hollow excuse.
Elsewhere someone commented that the jedi mind trick was not mind control, just suggestions. But we see Obi Wan use this in a bar and turned a street pusher into a puppet. "You don't want to sell me death sticks." "You want to go home and rethink your life." The guy stopped his sales pitch then got up and left repeating his orders. That is not pure good. That is horrifying. And it came from one of the most stand up jedi we admire. You want an ideal Jedi? Luke Skywalker in Empire and Return. Empire he could die, but he had to help his friends. The old jedi? Let them die. Return, he had to face Vader his way. He had to try and save him, redeem him. To do less would not be the Hero

That was intended though.

Lucas was doing a similar variation of the Prime Directive where that was Republic business and the Jedi had other priorities beyond interfering and moralizing lest they feel the need to eventually run the Republic. Nonetheless, their distance is part of the thematic reason why they fell in the Prequels and why Qui Gon's death is a tragedy: He wanted to restore a more engaged, humane Jedi to the galaxy and died before he could. As a result, the Jedi fell because they were typical stuffy, remote priests who didn't see disaster looming under their nose.

Luke as a single character is one thing, you're getting into organization territory with Jedi as a group. Groups are always compromised, and one could see the example of Qui Gon you cite as a sign of even him being effected by the corruption of them as a group. The sad thing is, so little of this was really explored in the Prequels because Lucas wanted to focus more on the politics of the early 2000s.

Part of the point is putting Superman and the Jedi on the same page.
Morally Superman is as I said an ideal. And for that reason he is read and loved. How do we know that? Because every time someone alters him there is huge backlash. He is to be the bright hope in a bleak world.

The Jedi, if you want to say Prime Directive and not their jurisdiction. Do not hold them up as paragons of truth and justice. The are the police. By definition supposed to be good. Some will be, some will be just awful, and most will just try to get through the day and collect their pay check.

To simply answer the title thread. Are they boring? No. Ralph Dibney commented on how he met his future wife. "There's chocolate, and vanilla. But some people like strawberry." The people that do not like Superman and Captain America do not buy the titles. Make them dark and gritty, they still won't buy them. Because they already made their choice.