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Catra vs. Dukat: When is a Villain Beyond Redemption?

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:21 am
by Winter
One of the most talked about characters in Star Trek is Gul Dukat who is often ranked as one of the most beloved villains in Trek with only Khan himself being able to surpass him. One of the things that helped to flesh Dukat out was how he, for a while, joined the heroes and fought alongside them and we saw that there was more to him then a standard villain, we saw him as a loving father, a brother-in-arms and even his rivalry with Garek was fun to watch.

The writers did such a great job at fleshing Dukat out that they were forced to over compensate and make his villainy undeniable with him becoming a dictator of his world, making an alliance with the Dominion and helped to insure the Dominion war began. Admitted to hating the Bajorians and wanting to kill them all, creating a cult to worship him and tried to ruin Kira's memory of her mother. However, what is often considered his standout moment of villainy came at the end of Season 6 when he killed Jadzia Dax and showed no sign of remorse and was even shown to have enjoyed it.

And yet many fans STILL liked him and were holding out hope that he could be redeemed.

And now we come to She-Ra and that series Deuteragonist and the titles characters main romantic interest, Catra. Much like Dukat, Catra was shown in a number of lights that helped to flesh her character out as we saw her as a cruel and ruthless villain we also saw her in a sympathetic light and saw, just like with Dukat, that she could be playful, kind and caring. We saw that she was a victim of abuse and saw that her abuser was the worst of the worst and that in-spite of everything she did love Adora, Scorpia & Entrapta and that all her attempts to achieve power were just her warped mindset which mistook love and companionship for respect and respect for fear.

And yet, Catra did some messed up $#!t. She left captured Glimmer and Bow and let Shadow Weaver curse/torture them, left Adora to die and nearly caused the apocalypse, got Glimmer's mom trapped in another dimension and led a war of conquest and did a pretty good job of it. And yet, despite all this most fans, including myself, wanted to see Catra redeemed, wanted her to realize the good that was in her and turn her life around. And while it's obvious to us now that was always going to be the case at the time, there was some serious doubt that Catra would be redeemed.

But she was, she saved Glimmer, helped to free the other princesses, risked her life and freewill to help turn the tides against Horde Prime and through her love for Adora helped to save the whole dang universe. And most fans, excepted this, saw Catra's actions and the punishment she received as enough to except her redemption. But some didn't, many felt that Catra did to much and didn't pay enough for her mistakes to be forgiven.

On the whole most fans agree that Dukat had to die at the end of DS9 while on She-Ra most fans feel that Catra earned her redemption and deserved to live. I've made an entire set of character studies on DeviantArt going over why I feel that way and those tend to get the most views out of all my posts besides Star Wars.

So, what makes either Catra or Dukat un/redeemable? For me, it all comes down to a single point, do the characters show regret/a desire to change who they are? With Dukat the answer was no, he never apologized for his part in the Occupation of Bajor and even made it clear that he believed in it every step of the way until his dying breath. Catra, by contrast, always showed regret for her choices. She had never planned to have Glimmer and Bow tortured that was Shadow Weaver's plan and she was shown to be unsure about doing it. She showed regret for leaving Adora to her death, she showed that her actions at the end of Season 3 was hunting her dreams and waking moments and she tried to bound with other people and tried to make amends with Scorpia after the latter called her a bad friend.

When Season 5 came around it was still up for debate whether Catra would be redeemed but when she bounded with Glimmer (who also made some REALLY stupid choices leading up to the finale of season 4 I might add) and choose to save her it showed that the good person that was always there was still there and that she could be saved.

Dukat, as nuanced as he was, never showed any such sign that he could be saved from himself. He hated Sisko and Kira because they never gave him the respect or admission he felt he deserves, he hated the peace with Bajor and the Federation because he felt it made Cardassia look weak and he hated the Dominion because they kept showing how they were always in control of him NOT because of what they would do.

Catra, despite all her faults, never wanted power or to be feared but to simply be loved and to feel that she mattered to someone. And one thing that should be noted, unlike Dukat, Catra never really tried to justify her actions, she admitted that they were wrong and she was wrong for doing them and thought she had no real option because of how she was raised. Dukat, as Chuck has joked over the years, tends to rewrite reality to it fits his view points and always looks for an excuse for anything and everything he does.

But still, it is down to what each of us think, some will always think Dukat should have had a chance at redemption and others will always think that Catra should die for her sins and return to villainy. So, this should be entertaining, thoughts? :twisted:

Re: Catra vs. Dukat: When is a Villain Beyond Redemption?

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:55 pm
by hammerofglass
I don't think it's a question of deserving. The difference is their choices.

Dukat had a chance at redemption. In Waltz he came to see himself as he really was, all the delusions of righteousness stripped away to the core of childish resentment festering in his heart. And his response was to embrace it, double down, and deliberately hurt as many people as possible out of sheer spite.

Meanwhile Catra had a similar experience when her last big plan failed and Double Trouble spelled her issues out to her. She was so devastated by facing it that she gave up without a fight when Glimmer came for her, and her redemption arc began there.

Re: Catra vs. Dukat: When is a Villain Beyond Redemption?

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:11 pm
by CharlesPhipps
I feel like "Waltz" wasn't authentic to Dukat's character and that he didn't want to murder all Bajorans for his characterization. I feel like that was the writers giving up on the fact that the audience didn't realize he was a murderous fascist and rapist who thought he was the good guy. Dukat could never be redeemed, though, because he never thought he did anything wrong.

Which is a much better reason why he was an irredeemable scumbag.

Re: Catra vs. Dukat: When is a Villain Beyond Redemption?

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:32 pm
by Thebestoftherest
Yeah too me is that under no circumstances would Dukat ever believe he was wrong while Catra was able to, or atleast admit another way was better.

Re: Catra vs. Dukat: When is a Villain Beyond Redemption?

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:39 am
by McAvoy
I have no idea who Catra is. I am assuming this is yet another She Ra comparison to 'insert something here'. So I am not going to comment on a versus between the two.

Dukat himself deserves his own post because there is so much to unpack and discuss.

I think the writers realized that they needed a anti Sisko. Dukat was a natural choice but honestly he had more with Kira than Sisko. His interactions with Sisko was more about Gul Dukat the military commander and Kira dealt with more of Dukat the man.

Re: Catra vs. Dukat: When is a Villain Beyond Redemption?

Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:32 am
by CharlesPhipps
I still wish they'd gone with the idea that Ziyal's mother was Kira's mother under another name.

Re: Catra vs. Dukat: When is a Villain Beyond Redemption?

Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:06 am
by Frustration
The question itself is a problem, as it forces matters into concepts of 'redemption'.

Actual people, and well-crafted characters, have complexities. We don't expect to automatically support their goals and methods, even if we generally agree with them. Works of fiction simplify; that's one of their main purposes, after all. One of the ways they reduce complexity is to establish conventions about whom we should support/oppose, sympathize with or reject: "good guys" vs. "bad guys", heroes and villains.

Is Londo Mollari a hero or a villain, someone we despise or someone we love, sympathetic or a monster?

YES.