Sfdebris.net

Posted: **Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:26 am**

What is often the most talked about point of TLJ for people who both defend and criticize it is that the film was a subversion of what we thought it was going to be and that it went in a different direction for a Star Wars film. But did it or did it play to expectations?

Before The Force Awakens was released there were a TON of videos, articles and fan art/fics that expected Luke to have fallen down the dark path, that he would no longer be the symbol of hope he was in the original Trilogy and in TLJ that is basically what happened. Luke contemplated killing his own nephew in his sleep and spent the whole film being cynical and making big speeches about how the Jedi needed to end.

There was also Reylo as it had become one of the most popular ships in the Disney Sequel Trilogy fandom, even beating out FinRey. And come TLJ the film made gave the relationship between Rey and Kylo a LOT of romantic undertones.

Fans also wanted the next film to have more surprises after TFA played things to safe and sure enough TLJ worked to try and keep fans on their toes. Even Kylo turning on Rey and refusing to turn to the light side is indicative of what fans wanted. Some fans wanted Kylo to be redeemed but in the events leading up to TLJ there was actually more fans who wanted Kylo to be evil, either because it would make him less of a Vader Clone or because fans felt he had crossed a line when he killed Han.

However, as pointed out elsewhere, TLJ made the same mistake as TFA in that it had the same story as The Empire Strikes Back, beat for beat, which only solidified the idea that TDST was just a retread of The Original Trilogy.

That's not to say that TLJ didn't do anything subversive, I would argue that what the film's fourth act DOES subvert our expectations because it wrapped up the entire Trilogy in act 2 which is also considered even by the fans of TLJ and TDST as a whole a mistake it meant that the final chapter of TDST had pretty much nothing to work with. But before that, IMO, the film doesn't really do anything that is really subversive. For the most part, again IMO, the film is pandering to the audience just not the nostalgia half of it while still just retreading TOT.

Let's take a look at another Disney property, one that went against convention of the usual Disney formula, Raya and the Last Dragon. RATLD has no musical numbers, the hero is a more cynical character who doesn't seek something more but just wants her father back, the villain isn't a standard twist villain or a classic mustache twirling villain but a more morally complex Zuko type character who is more nuanced and has a redemption arc. The closest thing the lead has to a romantic interest is the aforementioned villain whom she has some rather flirty banter with. It's also an APOCALYPSE film that plays said Apocalypse surprisingly straight, sure the threat isn't zombies and is more "Family Friendly" but it's still treated like the world is ending.

And on top of everything else, the ultimate hero of the film is Namaari, the main antagonist of the film and the one who started this whole mess. And in the end she is redeemed or, at the very least, begins her redemption arc.

THIS is a subversion of the usual Disney Princess formula. Even other Disney Princess films like the Frozen films and Moana still largely kept true to the formula that made the Disney Princess films so successful, (someone wants something more then life they had and goes on an adventure and in the end they find love (romantic, family or platonic) and find what truly makes them special).

While Disney has yet to official make RATLD a part of the Disney Princess franchise it was marketed as something that would shake things up from how a Disney Animated film and a Disney Princess film usually goes (and staring an actor from TLJ I might add) and it did delver on that. All throughout the film it truly doesn't follow the Disney Formula at all while TLJ is ultimately just doing what was done before just slightly altered and including a unneeded 4th act which, again just my opinion, is the only time the film really works to subvert the usual story format.

This is ultimately going to come down to each persons view on the story and how one views subversions but I don't really see TLJ as subversive.

Thoughts?

Posted: **Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:23 pm**

Honestly as someone who has read a lot of the old EU, watched Clone Wars and Rebels, and played both the original KOTOR games and every class in SWTOR multiple times I thought TLJ was... another one. The franchise naval gazing about it's own setting and deconstructing or reconstructing elements of itself is practically it's default setting and has been since the second movie, and as a sci-fi/fantasy rock soup with a deliberate Hero's Journey homage at the core of it it's the perfect setting for that kind of thing. All the Jedi stuff in the movie is basically just a generic Jedi plot at this point.

The Holdo plot is where the "subverting expectations" part really fell on its face. The Admiral wasn't a traitor (which was I thought was coming on first viewing) or in over her head with no plan, she's just a terrible leader that nobody in her command trusts and that refuses to do basic leader things like maintain morale or reassure them there's a plan.

Posted: **Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:42 pm**

Yes they subverted the expectation that the original characters would be more than narrative torch passers.

Posted: **Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:01 pm**

Nope. I expected it to be a terrible movie, and it was.

The entire franchise has become nothing but a money-making machine. People need to realize that they don't need to see bad movies and television merely because they are major cultural presences. Yes, that sort of response preserved TNG during its first two seasons, but they eventually found their footing. Star Wars has gotten worse since its high point in "The Empire Strikes Back", and it has only declined since then. It passed from the hands of a single hack who was forced to collaborate with talented people to a group of hacks who are very bad at crafting stories but very good at making money with bad stories.

Posted: **Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:01 pm**

Frustration wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:01 pm Nope. I expected it to be a terrible movie, and it was.

The entire franchise has become nothing but a money-making machine. People need to realize that they don't need to see bad movies and television merely because they are major cultural presences. Yes, that sort of response preserved TNG during its first two seasons, but they eventually found their footing. Star Wars has gotten worse since its high point in "The Empire Strikes Back", and it has only declined since then. It passed from the hands of a single hack who was forced to collaborate with talented people to a group of hacks who are very bad at crafting stories but very good at making money with bad stories.

Impressive. Every word in that sentence was wrong.

Star Wars has had good or even great stories after Empire (Knights of the Old Republic, The Thrawn Trilogy, Rise of the Resistance Ride and The Clone Wars just to name a few). Lucas wasn't a hack writer who was forced to work with talented people he called in people to work over his script which he knew needed work but was left mostly intact as it was good just needed work. All those talented people were ones LUCAS called in NOT the higher-ups and the people who took over have all made good stories but were given little to no time to actually craft the story (they had to make the films in about a year to meet a deadline that the studio forced on them) and they had little to nothing to do with the marketing as that's the marketing department.

Also keep in mind that while Empire was the film Lucas was the least involved in the story made was the one that HE wrote which included all the things everyone liked (the darker tone where the heroes lost, Vader being Luke's father, Han and Leia ending up together, Lando and Yoda ALL Lucas' idea). And the ideas in TDST are good (as shown by She-Ra and the Princesses of Power which shared a lot of the same ideas as TDST) but lack the focus because, again, deadlines made by the higher-ups.

And finally the Disney Era of Star Wars is starting to find it's footing as shown by Season 7 of the Clone Wars and the Mandalorian as shown by both the positive reception of both fans, critics and general audience. But even if that wasn't the case it has nothing to do with the subject at hand. This is asking if TLJ subvert expectations or playing to them not the quality of the work.

It's like asking if Watchmen was the comic (along with The Dark Knight Returns) that launched the Dark Age of Comics or if it was The Death of Superman that did that. It's not a question of quality as most would agree that all three are good stories but a question of which one started to ball rolling.

Now, I'm not a fan of TLJ or TDST as a whole but it does have it's fans and I'm someone who enjoys the Prequel Trilogy, flawed as they are, which is why the question is what it is. I'm not calling it a bad movie I'm asking whether or not the film is Subversive. So, stay on topic please.

Posted: **Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:24 pm**

Winter wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:01 pm
Star Wars has had good or even great stories after Empire (Knights of the Old Republic, The Thrawn Trilogy, Rise of the Resistance Ride and The Clone Wars just to name a few).
I am in fact referring to the movie franchise. There have been other genuinely good works in the SW setting, but they were made by people who 1) were talented 2) cared about creating art in addition to making money. And it is precisely because they weren't involved in the big movies that they had enough freedom to make a good product.

Lucas cares, but isn't talented. The people in control now neither care nor have talent.

Lucas wasn't a hack writer who was forced to work with talented people
The actors in the first trilogy rewrote their own lines because Lucas' dialog was so terrible. The most iconic lines had nothing to do with Lucas at all.

He's the one who has insisted that the Light side of the Force be good, and the Dark side be evil, without exception or complexity. He's the one who crafted and imposed the restrictions imposed on other creators who kept trying to take the Force in a more Taoist direction instead of the Western-style black/white hat symbolism.

As Lucas gained in status and money, he lost the humility necessary to permit others to improve on his weaknesses, and the people surrounding him became less willing to stand up to him. The result was the prequel trilogy, which is notable for utterly horrible dialog.

And finally the Disney Era of Star Wars is starting to find it's footing as shown by Season 7 of the Clone Wars and the Mandalorian
Those aren't movies. Don't get me started on Disney - I have sworn off all of their products after "Disney must pay".

Now, I'm not a fan of TLJ or TDST as a whole but it does have it's fans and I'm someone who enjoys the Prequel Trilogy, flawed as they are, which is why the question is what it is. I'm not calling it a bad movie I'm asking whether or not the film is Subversive. So, stay on topic please.
You mean, subversive of ethical and moral expectations, rather than expectations of quality. (If you want people to stay on your topic, you have to express your topic more clearly.)

And unfortunately, I am on-topic, because the quality of the ethical and moral thinking of the work is a major aspect of the quality of its construction. The latest movies have been so badly written, both in themselves and as part of larger arc, that it is no surprise that this major aspect of quality is bad. It pretty much has to be.

Even if you have much more respect for the degree of thought invested in the movies than I do, you must acknowledge that the middle film tried to go in a completely different direction than most people expected, and in a way that didn't seem to mesh well with the first movie's setup. Then the third movie tried to wrench things back again.

Posted: **Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:50 pm**

You want to unpack what you mean by "subversive of ethical and moral expectations"? Because my assumption is not something I want to casually accuse you of.

Posted: **Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:24 pm**

Frustration wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:24 pm I am in fact referring to the movie franchise. There have been other genuinely good works in the SW setting, but they were made by people who 1) were talented 2) cared about creating art in addition to making money. And it is precisely because they weren't involved in the big movies that they had enough freedom to make a good product.

Lucas cares, but isn't talented. The people in control now neither care nor have talent.

That doesn't preclude that Lucas or anyone working on the films right now are hacks. A hack is, by defnintion, "a writer who is paid to write low-quality, rushed articles or books "to order", often with a short deadline". While the writers in TDST were all rushed they've proven their talent in other films such as The Empire Strikes Back, Knives Out and Argo all received critical acclaim and are still talked about fondly to this day.

The actors in the first trilogy rewrote their own lines because Lucas' dialog was so terrible. The most iconic lines had nothing to do with Lucas at all.

He's the one who has insisted that the Light side of the Force be good, and the Dark side be evil, without exception or complexity. He's the one who crafted and imposed the restrictions imposed on other creators who kept trying to take the Force in a more Taoist direction instead of the Western-style black/white hat symbolism.

La Belle et la Bête by Jean Cocteau has this at the start of the movie-

"Children believe what we tell them. They have complete faith in us. They believe that a rose plucked from a garden can plunge a family into conflict. They believe that the hands of a human beast will smoke when he slays a victim, and that this will cause him shame when a young maiden takes up residence in his home. They believe a thousand other simple things.

I ask of you a little of this childlike sympathy and, to bring us luck, let me speak four truly magic words, childhood's "Open Sesame":

Once upon a time..."

Translating, Stop thinking for a bit and lighten up. Star Wars is, at the end of the day, a fairy-tale meant to have simplistic views that still make you think but more importantly make you feel. Also the films did provide more complexity as they went on as evident by Vader who was a more nuanced character who's arc directed by Lucas. Lucas was the one who raised the point that the Jedi may not have been as pure and good as we first thought as shown in the Prequel Trilogy.

Don't get me started on Disney - I have sworn off all of their products after "Disney must pay".

That's perfectly fine, just like me and others enjoying the Prequels or TDST is perfectly fine.

And unfortunately, I am on-topic, because the quality of the ethical and moral thinking of the work is a major aspect of the quality of its construction. The latest movies have been so badly written, both in themselves and as part of larger arc, that it is no surprise that this major aspect of quality is bad. It pretty much has to be.

Even if you have much more respect for the degree of thought invested in the movies than I do, you must acknowledge that the middle film tried to go in a completely different direction than most people expected, and in a way that didn't seem to mesh well with the first movie's setup. Then the third movie tried to wrench things back again.

All of which is an interesting point and has nothing to do with the topic on hand. Does TLJ Subvert Exceptions is the subject of the topic at hand and what your talking about is only slightly connected to that. Again, using the did Watchmen or The Death of Superman Start the Dark Age of Comics this would be like if someone came in to talk about how Alan Moore ruined Classic Literature when he wrote The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen or how Superman would be evil if he was real. This is only tangentially connected to the subject and ultimately irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Does TLJ Subvert Expectations is not about the quality of the work but whether or not it is actually subversive. Again, Stay. On. Topic.

For example, when I brought up Raya that was to help illustrate a story in a franchise or made by a company that subverts what we expect a Disney Film to be so while it was a different series it fit into what I was saying because that film WAS subversive for a Disney film.

If you have something to say that is not related to the topic at hand post it on the main forum bored. You'll likely get people talking about it. But that has nothing to do with the topic at hand in THIS Post.

Posted: **Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:35 pm**

Winter wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:24 pm Translating, Stop thinking for a bit

NEVER!

Posted: **Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:46 am**

Frustration wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:35 pm
Winter wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:24 pm Translating, Stop thinking for a bit
NEVER!

Fair. Perhaps the issue is being too serious? Most of Star Wars is not that deep. It has a decent enough story that pulls you along and does not (normally) mire itself in anything too deep. Which helps to not date the story overly much. Your dissection is reminiscent of looking for deeper meaning in Dr. Seuss books.

As for the call to be on topic. . Frozen subverted expectations. It did not follow the established patterns and broke out a touching story that was felt by male and female and any other pronoun they wish. Young and old. The Last Jedi went against the grain and left little sympathy. I saw this movie as a friend took me to ask if he just saw a good bad movie, or a bad good movie. Visually it was wonderful. I think the honestly best part was Kylo Ren hesitating to fire because his mother was on that bridge. And even he has issues harming his mother. But that was a minor scene in the movie and not built upon.

Was TLJ subverting expectations? If you count being terrible and undoing all the previous works, then oh hell yes. TLJ was to SW as a whole, like a sequel to Snow White having prince Charming handing Snow White to his men to have their way with her. While he enslaves her people and strip mines the lands to feed his military industrial complex.

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