Is Rey too Powerful?

[Winter]

So, on the Ghostbusters (2016) reboot post I made a little while ago there is a debate about whether Rey is to skilled in the Force and is a Mary Sue and one comment caught my attention.

Anakin was using the force like a pro and won the day when he was Ten.

As always we're all entitled to our opinions but I have to strongly disagree with this one. In The Phantom Menace all Anakin uses the Force for is being able to see brief glimpses into the Future and seeing what Mace Windu is looking at when he is being questioned by the Jedi Council. His skills as a pilot are a bit much but it's made clear through dialogue and what we see in the story that Anakin is a skilled Pilot through the pod race and honestly, when it comes to flying an actual space ship he's mostly just bumbling his way through the battle.

Let's also take a look at Luke. He only uses the Force to block a few shots from a practice droid and make an otherwise impossible shot in the final battle. And just like his father it's established several times through dialogue that Luke is a skilled pilot so that skill is not a result of the Force.

We're not going to look that much at any of the other SW medias outside the films because there's to many to count and the canonisity of this medias is always going to be a matter of debate though I do want to point out that Revan in KOTOR was just relearning all they had forgotten but still knew on a subconscious level and still needed training to hone that skill. And Mara Jade also took years to learn because her skills and understanding of the Force was limited by Palpatine's control over her.

And now we look at Rey, in the course of a single day Rey learns she has powers and perform (without any training) a Mind-Trick, a Force Pull and beats someone who was training in lightsaber combat by using a lightsaber, which is a weapon she's never even held before.

Both Anakin and Luke didn't perform ANY of these tricks until their second movie and on top of that they were repeatedly bested by those who HAD been using the Force for years. Both Skywalker's lost a limb in their second film when going up against a powerful Sith lord and while they did put up a good fight in the end the Sith they were both fighting were toying with them until the end the fight where they then quickly showed just how classed they were.

Also, in the send film they both best the one who defeated them before and that is treated as a bad thing because in both cases they had to use their anger which had them tap into the Dark Side to win the Fight. Rey uses her anger in every fight she's in the films never seem to realize that this is a Bad thing until Rise of Skywalker... And then, clearly in anger, she still kills her opponent or are we suppose to see that as the Death Glare of Serenity?

So, IMO, yes Rey was to powerful as she learns what takes others years to learn and never loses any of the fights she's in.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

The mind-trick was a more developed character writing set up by her being established as someone who survives by bartering and is indicatively charismatic. She's also a great deal older than Anakin and probably Luke, and accustom to a more aggressive lifestyle. It's debatable as to how advanced a casual mind-trick is, but there's also the consideration that she's just force sensitive and naturally inclined to use jedi mindtricks.

With regard to the fight, I thought that Jill Bearup addressed it pretty well, another part of the writing, where Kylo's ego is obviously getting the better of him, and he is also wounded from being shot by Chewie's big ass gun. It's reasonable to consider that the force was able to guide her discretely through the events discussed.

[Nealithi]

Sorry going to be pedantic. I think she is too skilled. I don't have issue with power. I would have loved it if she was so powerful that she did things too much. Force pull? Pulled too much too fast. And so on. So she had to learn control when she was taught. That would have been a new direction in the films.

But she comes off as at least moderately skilled in the first movie.

Now the lightsaber fight has been gone over by people that know sword fighting and she beats Kylo in that fight because he had a massive wound that was messing with him. He kept beating his chest and side like he was forcing himself to keep going. Other wise I think he would have taken her apart.

[Nealithi]

The mind-trick was a more developed character writing set up by her being established as someone who survives by bartering and is indicatively charismatic. She's also a great deal older than Anakin and probably Luke, and accustom to a more aggressive lifestyle. It's debatable as to how advanced a casual mind-trick is, but there's also the consideration that she's just force sensitive and naturally inclined to use jedi mindtricks.

With regard to the fight, I thought that Jill Bearup addressed it pretty well, another part of the writing, where Kylo's ego is obviously getting the better of him, and he is also wounded from being shot by Chewie's big ass gun. It's reasonable to consider that the force was able to guide her discretely through the events discussed.

Heh, Jill Bearup's review is who I was thinking of as well.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

The mind-trick was a more developed character writing set up by her being established as someone who survives by bartering and is indicatively charismatic. She's also a great deal older than Anakin and probably Luke, and accustom to a more aggressive lifestyle. It's debatable as to how advanced a casual mind-trick is, but there's also the consideration that she's just force sensitive and naturally inclined to use jedi mindtricks.

With regard to the fight, I thought that Jill Bearup addressed it pretty well, another part of the writing, where Kylo's ego is obviously getting the better of him, and he is also wounded from being shot by Chewie's big ass gun. It's reasonable to consider that the force was able to guide her discretely through the events discussed.

Heh, Jill Bearup's review is who I was thinking of as well.

Yeah? What about it?

[Winter]

@BridgeConsoleMasher I'm going to address each of your points and I do want it to be noted that I'm not angry just presenting my counterargument. Do with that as you will.

The mind-trick was a more developed character writing set up by her being established as someone who survives by bartering and is indicatively charismatic.

When do we see Rey bartering or being charismatic? The first time she seen dealing with the junk dealer he's giving her what he says the junk she's brought back is worth and that's it. She doesn't negotiate or charm him to give her more. She takes what she is given and leaves. I re-watched the scene just to be sure and nothing in the film establishes Rey as someone who barters with other people using her charismatic personality.

She's also a great deal older than Anakin and probably Luke, and accustom to a more aggressive lifestyle. It's debatable as to how advanced a casual mind-trick is, but there's also the consideration that she's just force sensitive and naturally inclined to use jedi mindtricks.

Couple of problems here, Luke doesn't perform a Mind-Trick until Return of the Jedi, 5 or 6 years in universe and we never see Anakin us the Mind-Trick very often in either the films or the Clone Wars. This suggests that the Mind-Trick is rather advance and takes a lot of skill to use (and as shown in the unused Duel of the Fates Rey was so good at the Mind-Trick that she could even use it on strong minded people BUT that film was never made so I won't hold that against her).

Someone else on the forum suggested an interesting idea, that Rey uses the Mind-Trick more by accident and it works and doesn't know how she did it. I like this idea as it shows how powerful she is but has no idea how to use her powers as she tries this again later and nothing happens which results in Rey getting into a fight where she's saved by Han, Finn and Chewie.

This would actually tie into what Kylo said about her nicely, that she is untrained but strong in the Force. Easy fix that sets up a proper character arc which, IMO, is lacking in the films.

Also, it's made clear that the older someone gets the harder it is for them to learn the ways of the Force. The Jedi turned Anakin away despite the possibility that he could be the Chosen One because he was to old. He was 10 in TPM and it was believed that he was to old to learn what it meant to learn the ways of the Force. The Mandalorian even goes a bit further by stating that the longer someone goes through life without using the Force the weaker their connection to the Force becomes.

With regard to the fight, I thought that Jill Bearup addressed it pretty well, another part of the writing, where Kylo's ego is obviously getting the better of him, and he is also wounded from being shot by Chewie's big ass gun. It's reasonable to consider that the force was able to guide her discretely through the events discussed.

I actually do agree with this idea but my problem is Rey NEVER loses a fight in this Trilogy. She defeats Kylo, Defeats Luke, Defeats the Red Guards, Defeats Kylo again and Defeats Palpatine. Every time she comes close to losing she something happens that allows her to gain the upper hand and she quickly turns the tables. The only exception is her confrontation with Snoke and it could be argued that she indirectly defeated him though her bound with Kylo.

If it was just the one fight in TFA I honestly would be fine if she lost the next fight. But she never loses and just goes through the whole Trilogy without a scratch. The resent game Rachet and Clank: A Rift Apart had Rivet reveal that she lost an arm in a failed mission. Lara in the second reboot of Tomb Raider goes through Hell and is left scared by the experience both physically and psychologically. Mara Jade is basically Indiana Jones if he were a former assassin as she spends most of her Trilogy getting outclassed by everyone and Mara's a badass through and through.

Again, if it was JUST the fight in TFA I would be okay with it but it's NOT just one fight it's ALL of them. Again, this would be a simple fix, just have her lose the fight with the Red Guard and it's Kylo who saves her instead of the other way around. This gives the impression that the fight in TFA was just her getting lucky and that Kylo is the more dangerous of the two in sword combat.

Again, I'm just presenting my counterargument, nothing more nothing less and I hope that it helps to show my side of the argument.

[Nealithi]

The mind-trick was a more developed character writing set up by her being established as someone who survives by bartering and is indicatively charismatic. She's also a great deal older than Anakin and probably Luke, and accustom to a more aggressive lifestyle. It's debatable as to how advanced a casual mind-trick is, but there's also the consideration that she's just force sensitive and naturally inclined to use jedi mindtricks.

With regard to the fight, I thought that Jill Bearup addressed it pretty well, another part of the writing, where Kylo's ego is obviously getting the better of him, and he is also wounded from being shot by Chewie's big ass gun. It's reasonable to consider that the force was able to guide her discretely through the events discussed.

Heh, Jill Bearup's review is who I was thinking of as well.

Yeah? What about it?

I had a parallel view and thought it amusing we basically cited the same source? I was not arguing.

[hammerofglass]

Honestly the Star Wars character I would most compare her to is Kyle Katarn. Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight Kyle specifically, when he goes from picking up a lightsaber to matching half a dozen Sith in what in-universe is like a week. She's a video game protagonist. She can't lose a fight because that's the gameplay loop and it would mean the player yiffed up. She's instantly an expert at every new ability because it's a game mechanic she unlocked. Her final fight with Sidius is a quick-time event.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

The mind-trick was a more developed character writing set up by her being established as someone who survives by bartering and is indicatively charismatic.

When do we see Rey bartering or being charismatic? The first time she seen dealing with the junk dealer he's giving her what he says the junk she's brought back is worth and that's it. She doesn't negotiate or charm him to give her more. She takes what she is given and leaves. I re-watched the scene just to be sure and nothing in the film establishes Rey as someone who barters with other people using her charismatic personality.

What happens is he offers her a wealthy amount of credits in order to buy bb8 and she refuses before narrating to the audience that that would have been more money than she needed.

I'm going to agree that it's not particularly cunning, but it does work as a Willy Wonka test of sorts. I personally would have went with cunning if I was writing, so make of that what you will.

The point is she does show resistance to his bartering in particular, and it is for a distinctively noble cause if we are to assume that he's not a very lively character.

She's also a great deal older than Anakin and probably Luke, and accustom to a more aggressive lifestyle. It's debatable as to how advanced a casual mind-trick is, but there's also the consideration that she's just force sensitive and naturally inclined to use jedi mindtricks.

Couple of problems here, Luke doesn't perform a Mind-Trick until Return of the Jedi, 5 or 6 years in universe and we never see Anakin us the Mind-Trick very often in either the films or the Clone Wars. This suggests that the Mind-Trick is rather advance and takes a lot of skill to use (and as shown in the unused Duel of the Fates Rey was so good at the Mind-Trick that she could even use it on strong minded people BUT that film was never made so I won't hold that against her).

That doesn't mean that the jedi mind trick is necessarily that advanced for everyone, just that Luke himself took a long time to learn it.

Also, it's made clear that the older someone gets the harder it is for them to learn the ways of the Force. The Jedi turned Anakin away despite the possibility that he could be the Chosen One because he was to old. He was 10 in TPM and it was believed that he was to old to learn what it meant to learn the ways of the Force. The Mandalorian even goes a bit further by stating that the longer someone goes through life without using the Force the weaker their connection to the Force becomes.

I'm not sure why you bring this part up in particular given that "people being too old to learn the force" is a recurring theme of subversion since the first movie made. No shit she's very old, that's the point of the story focusing on her.

With regard to the fight, I thought that Jill Bearup addressed it pretty well, another part of the writing, where Kylo's ego is obviously getting the better of him, and he is also wounded from being shot by Chewie's big ass gun. It's reasonable to consider that the force was able to guide her discretely through the events discussed.

I actually do agree with this idea but my problem is Rey NEVER loses a fight in this Trilogy. She defeats Kylo, Defeats Luke, Defeats the Red Guards, Defeats Kylo again and Defeats Palpatine. Every time she comes close to losing she something happens that allows her to gain the upper hand and she quickly turns the tables. The only exception is her confrontation with Snoke and it could be argued that she indirectly defeated him though her bound with Kylo.

If it was just the one fight in TFA I honestly would be fine if she lost the next fight. But she never loses and just goes through the whole Trilogy without a scratch. The resent game Rachet and Clank: A Rift Apart had Rivet reveal that she lost an arm in a failed mission. Lara in the second reboot of Tomb Raider goes through Hell and is left scared by the experience both physically and psychologically. Mara Jade is basically Indiana Jones if he were a former assassin as she spends most of her Trilogy getting outclassed by everyone and Mara's a badass through and through.

Again, if it was JUST the fight in TFA I would be okay with it but it's NOT just one fight it's ALL of them. Again, this would be a simple fix, just have her lose the fight with the Red Guard and it's Kylo who saves her instead of the other way around. This gives the impression that the fight in TFA was just her getting lucky and that Kylo is the more dangerous of the two in sword combat.

When does Obi Wan ever lose a fight in the movies except for on purpose?

@BridgeConsoleMasher I'm going to address each of your points and I do want it to be noted that I'm not angry just presenting my counterargument. Do with that as you will.

Again, I'm just presenting my counterargument, nothing more nothing less and I hope that it helps to show my side of the argument.

I'm not really sure what this is supposed to refer to, I've never been in any type of contentious exchange with you, so I'm not sure why you're boiler plating that.

[clearspira]

Obi Wan Kenobi is a master trained by Qui Gon Jinn and Yoda. It would be a bit of a shock if he didn't win every battle. Of course it isn't even true. He got his ass kicked by Dooku and clearly would have lost to Palpatine.

Anyway... lets run down the list shall we lads?

Luke - Lost a hand in his first lightsaber battle. Only defeated Palpatine because Anakin helped him.
Anakin - Lost a hand against Dooku. Lost his whole body against Obi Wan.
Obi Wan - Was completely defeated by Dooku.
Yoda - Was completely defeated by Palpatine.
Qui Gon Jinn: Killed.
Mace Windu - Killed.
All of the other Jedi we see: Killed.
Rey - Won every battle. Never lost a limb. Ends up being the true Chosen One.

Yeah, sure lol. Not too powerful. OK.